Altum X Scalare Angels

From various sites I searched tonight, including finarama among them, from what I could tell looking at hundreds of pics, I believe it's save to say that these are Pt. cf. Scalare. Will wait for @Dirk to comment when he is back and has the time to do so. We all know the prof is a bussy man. Prof, if you will be so kind as to tell me if they are indeed male and female as well from what you can see from the pics. If it's unclear, I will take more pics and post them. They were chosen by size and shape of the head.

Well no matter what type they are at the end of the day, both my wife and I like them alot and she is very impressed with her new angels.

 

True. What ever they are they arecgood specimens

 

Hi Guys,A quick reply because I am connecting via my cellphone. They are definitely not Altum, I cannot even see a trace of altum, they look like pure scalare to me. I will write for extensively when I return over the weekend. If you want me to hazard a guess about whether they are male and female, take a closeup pic because they are far too far away on that first pic for sexing.Kind regards,Dirk

 

OK guys,

I am now back at home and I have now looked at the first two close-up pics of the two fishes, I could not see them before.

I confirm again that they are not altum and there is not the faintest sign that they are crosses with altums either. The first fish is a Peruvian P scalare angel. I have fishes that look very much the same. The second fish actually has red spots and these have been sold overseas as "Peruvian altums" which is where the problems start with these wrong names. There are populations of Pterophyllum scalare angels that have those red dots in Peru, but they are slightly different again to the other "Peruvian P scalare". They can be crossed but if I was to try to breed them, then I would try to breed red spotted ones with each other and normal striped peruvians with each other.

Behind the scenes I am fairly sure that I now know where these fishes come from and which importer is importing them. If my source is correct, then these fishes come from Isreal from a company that used to breed discus called Danziger Discus, but although quite a few of their discus have been imported into SA in recent months, they have now stopped breeding discus. However they are still selling angels which they call "Dantums", a hybrid name of Danziger and Altums. They are informing persons that they are crossing Pterophyllum altum with Pterophyllum scalare. I have seen pics showing tanks with altums and scalare angels together, but I have not seen any pictures of crosses, so I do not know if they have managed to actually get successful crosses. These fishes can be crossed, but the altums are very difficult to breed because they need very acid and soft water, and I think this may be the reason why they are not having any success with these. However, they are selling their "Dantums" which they sell as altums crosses, but what I see are pure Peruvian P scalare angels. In my opinion this is a false claim and unfair toward the unknowing LFS owner and the the average aquarist, so this is a huge problem. I also have an ethical problem with selling something to anyone else claiming that it is something that it is not. This is just simply bad business and dishonesty.

With regard to your question about whether they are a male and a female, I think the peruvian is a male and the red-spotted one may be a female. Both of these types of fishes breed like rabbits and I would like to see more of the red-spotted ones in SA, so I hope someone manages to breed pure red-spotteds.

What I would also like to say that they are nice healthy P scalare angels and in spite of my comments about their origins, I agree that they are nice angels and I wish you much joy with them.

Kind regards,

dirk

 

Since the CPA came into effect its also now illegal in South Africa...

 

Dammit....i am still confused? Ok but let them breed!

 

Thank you so much @Dirk for taking the time to answer this post I hold your opinion in high regard. I was at Dorry Pets again today and I spoke to them and invited them to be part of this thread and to comment if they wish to do so. The person that I spoke to confirmed again and was quite adamant about it that these Angels are indeed Altum X Scalare. They are indeed called "Dantum Angels" as you stated... He said that they know the breeders and trust the breeders and the breeders said as these angels grow and mature they will look more like Altum's. I told them what you said and ... well, lets just leave it at that... Please, anybody, don't get me wrong, it's not my intention to create a heated debate or discussion over this nor am I pointing fingers at anyone and no disrespect is intended. I'm only interested in the facts that's all. If I have offended anyone knowing or unknowing I humbly appologies. Here are some pics I took at Dorry Pets today of there "Dantum Angels" Altum X Scalare.

 

Hi Charles,

Let me start by saying that I do not want to and need to start any heated arguments about altums, I do not need to argue or fight with anyone. I am an administrator and the scientific advisor of the international angelfish forum, finarama The Angelfish Study Group Index page . I have also twice bought genuine altum angel fishes, raised them and kept them successfully for a number of years, not many persons in SA have done this. I have visited one of the few persons that is breeding altum angelfishes in Germany in 2011, a gentleman called Simon Forkel, please see Willkommen auf der Startseite. I am currently conducting a study of angelfish genetics in my laboratory as a professor at the University of Stellenbosch. Please have a look at some of these pics on the striped angelfish thread, which is the most read thread on TASA. As a result, I have the necessary information and authority to be able to identify angelfishes despite what persons involved in the sale of fishes may claim, I don't need to get involved in any arguments.

The fish that is shown in the last picture that you have posted looks like it could have one parent as an altum, but the fishes that you have bought and you have shown show no altum parentage, about that I am sure. The red spotted one has nothing to do with altums, not even marginally. The fishes that you show, as far as I am concerned are pure P scalare, I do not have any doubt about this at all.

Now, I do not know who the importer was of the fishes that you have shown is for sure, I don't know if Dorry Pets imported them, or if it was the importer was who I think it was. I am not prepared to name the importer that I know has offered these fishes because I am not going to offer free advertisement for the company. However, they are offering what they call "Dantums" and they are also offering "altum angels from Surinam" which in their offer to the trade they have completely spelt incorrectly. Suriman is the name of the country that used to be called Dutch Guyana. This country is on the northern coast of South America, and is far away from where altums occur. What we know about Surinam in angel circles is that a shipment of angels from Peru was landed in Surinam many years ago and that a flight connection was not available, as a result of which these fishes were actually dumped in one of the local rivers and now these angels, which are actually peruvian red spotted scalare, are being sold from Surinam. However they are not sold as altums, but scalare, so there has been a renaming by the supplier now, and an incorrect renaming by someone who wants to sell these fishes. Red-spotted scalare angels are now commonly available in Europe and the USA and sell at marginally higher prices than domestic angels.

If Danziger Discus are claiming that these fishes are altums crosses, then I am sorry, I see no sign of it. What I see are Peruvian angels, with or without red spots, and the claim that they make that these fishes have one altum parent I cannot see at all. If Dorry Pets want me to take this further, I do not mind but they have also been tricked in this case.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Hi @Dirk

Thank you for your reply. Very informative as always.

Well folks, you read what Prof. Dirk wrote on the subject at hand. Like the saying goes "and that's that". It's a pitty Dorry Pets did not comment on this tread as I have invited them to do so. Mabe they were busy? Anyway, we all agree that my wife's Angelfish are beautiful! hahaha!!! Thank you to everybody for you're comments and inputs. If and when I do decide to breed them, I will definately post about it.

Kind Regards

Charles

 

Hi Charles,

You must at least give Dorry Pets a reasonable chance to respond, they are after all a commercial concern and they will respond during business hours. I would certainly like to hear what they have to say and clarify this issue. So let us wait a little.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Went to my lps today and to my surprise they had altum angels.

 

I don't believe it. It is completely not the right season for wild-caught altums and I doubt whether there are any tank bred ones will reach SA.

Could we see some pics please.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

I didn't take pictures, but even i could see they were normal striped angels.:smile1:

 

And so the confusion continues. I think I am going to post a thread about how to identify altums properly.

 

I think that's a good idea.:bigsmile:

 

@DewaldC - 99.9% of LFS will kill Altums within the 1st 24H of them arriving. I remember when @Dirk landed a batch how much work, attention and drama it took to get some of them to survive.... I highly doubt you will see actual altums in a LFS in SA.

 

@Dirk please post this thread, as all of us are keen to identify the difference, also if there is mixes between the 2 types, post pics and try and point out what to look for and where the difference is between the 2 types, and the mixed types. Also on the albino Altums (Dantums) and Altum Surnium red spot. This will help all of us, then ask the guys to sticky it for us.

Thanks Prof

 

Hi @Dirk

Both of these two Angels now displays the red spots you mentioned and both of them has a blue "blush" on their gill plates and they are also displaying blue on their dorsal fin and anal fin, their colour is also starting to change a bit, both are displaying a " light brown smokey tint" to them. Can this be caused by the type of food I feed them or do their colours change as the mature until they reached maturity or a certain age? I feed the following foods: Marine flakes with garlic, Tetra Prima (red in colour), Ocean Nutrition pellets (mainly for my Betta's but the Angels gulp them up as well), frozen (thawed) BS, bloodworms & Daphnia and occasionally some live BS. They have settled in nicely and comes upto my hand and feeds out of my hand much to the delight of my kids.

Kind regards

Charles

 

Hi @Dirk

Yes, PLEASE DO post a thread on True Altums and how to identify them correctly and how to care for them propperly, their specific needs, diseases, do's and dont's etc. We would appreciate this immensely.

Thank you in advance.

Kind regards

Charles

 

@Charles i bought P scalares that looks just like what you discribed there