To loach or not to loach ?

Today I was looking at purchasing a second tank (the illness is getting worse...) and followed a for sale ad. What I found was a uninteresting tank but in it 7 large (about 15 -18 cm) and beautiful clown loaches that the guy also wanted to sell. I was very saddened to see these 7 fish in a tank much too small (150 litters) with absolutely no hiding place and very nervous, however they looked healthy looking no white spots. Unluckily (for the loaches) Only 3 days ago I bought 5 clown loaches approximately 8-10 cm each. now I am contemplating if I should add these 7 and have a total of 12 loaches (I know they get big but also that they take there time) in a 550 litter tank + 4 deacons + 3 parrots. My question to you is two folds. First should I get them? What it would mean is that my tank will be mainly a loaches tank, I didn’t plan that but it doesn’t sound like the worse idea ever, (I know they live forever, I know they are big.... )
Secondly; if it is a yes, then how do I introduce them, my tank is newly established, if I bring in 7 big fish my system will crash, without a doubt, I will probably need to introduce them in stages, one or 2 every week...

Thoughts, ideas, insights?

 

The gift of large Clown loaches doesn't come along often...so get them....
Go to your LFS anf "beg,borrow,steal" some mature bio media from them and introduce to your filter... Or even better - get hold of a product called GT1 by Aqua Organics(a local company - Google them...W.Cape based,so should be easy to get hold of...) and use this to prevent nasty amonia/nitrite spikes...Works a TREAT...looks like water with bits of plant matter in,but DOES the job...

PS: MTS(multi tank syndrome) is incureable and I have been suffering happily for 3 decades...lol - @ it's worst...63 tanks in my bedroom....lol

 

Azurekoi, as always up for the challenge and seeing the positive in it. Someone else who i respect and knows his fish said exactly the same "GET THEM!" i spoke to the seller and he is prepared to wait a week or two so my tank can settle a little longer, in the meanwhile i will try and get the GT1 that you recommended.

Thank you

 

If the seller is willing to wait about 2 weeks then you could maybe organise the GT1 and then add them at a rate of 1 every few days so you give your filters a chance to catch up.

 

nat. do not lose this opportunity. any loaches this size is a treasure...

 

thank you mydummyname, i am certainly intending to do so, but with my luck i think i may have some white spot issue on one of my loaches. Maybe you can help me determine if that's the case? here are 2 photos of the same fish

 

hey.. very difficult to see in the pics, if it is ich, its still in the very early stages...

at what temperature is your tank running? the temp on your the thermometer, not the setting on the heater..

 

I raised the temperature to 30C (slowly...) i am considering salt treatment (very low dosage considering these are loaches)

 

If you're talking about the white spots on his face, then no. It's not whitespot. Whitespot shows up as very small spots usually first on the fins, and by small I mean less than a millimeter.

 

:bigsmile:Yes, that what i was referring to, i am beginning to smile again...

 

Those marks on the loaches look more like scars to me. I dont want to get into the whole treatment of whitespot issue here but please don't use salt to treat whitespot on loaches. They are particularly intolerant to salt (even in low doses), this is something I learnt the hard way. I know there are some who used salt and had positive results but there are many more credible sources that suggest otherwise. Besides that, those loaches are stunners and a very fortunate find.

Regards
Eugene

 

Oh i am so relived but just for future problems, here is the article i came across, i got it on the loach forum and it is apparently written by a very "respected" loach expert. What do you guys think?

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[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: [/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]If there are plants in the tank, then avoid salt.

I have heard of cures using both the heat and salt method, and with medication.

I know that Rid Ich is favored, Loaches seem to tolerate it better than other Ich medicines.

I have seen different levels of salt suggested. I have rccommended this method, and had people post back saying it works:

Ich is an organism that has several phases to its life cycle. Only one of the 3 phases is vulnerable to salt or any other medication.
Killing Ich is a matter of understanding that life cycle and having treatment in the tank at the right time to kill the susceptible phase.

Trophont is the phase that lives on the fish. At first you cannot see it, but within a few days it grows to the white spot that gives this parasite one of its common names. It lives on the fish for several days (longer in cooler water) then falls to the floor of the tank. Medicines do not affect this phase because it is burrowed under the fishes' slime coat. Fish can be infected in their gills, where you cannot see the parasite. This is why a quarantine tank is very important: New fish live in quarantine from your established tank(s) until Ich or other diseases or parasites have been ruled out or treated.

Tomont is the phase that reproduces, most often on the floor of the tank. Diligent vacuuming of the floor of the tank can remove a lot of these, and I have even heard of complete cures in a bare bottom tank with daily vacuuming. Meds do not affect this stage. The Ich organism is in this phase for only a day or so at tropical tank temperatures. This phase releases hundreds of free swimming babies.

Theront is the name given to the babies that swim in the water, looking for a host. This is the phase that is vulnerable to meds. They usually find a host in 24 hours, so keeping the meds in the water is important.

When you see a couple of white spots on the fish it may not look quite like full blown Ich at first, you are seeing the earliest visible signs. It grows quickly though to the obvious salt or sugar look. Since you do not know what ages of Ich are on the fish, and there is some natural variation in the growth rate, you can assume that you have all three phases in the tank by the time you see the first signs.

Treatment is aimed at finding something toxic to the Ich organisms without killing the fish. Some fish are more sensitive to certain medicines.

If you can raise the temperature the Ich will go through its life cycle faster, fall off the fish faster and reach the vulnerable stage (Theront) faster. If increasing the temperature is too hard on the fish then this is optional. Increase the aeration in the tank by adding a bubbler that increases the water movement, add a power head or other pump that creates more ripples at the surface, or drop the water level so the water returning from the filter will create more turbulence at the surface. If the fish are still gasping at the surface, lower the temperature by a couple of degrees. It is generally safe to raise or lower the temperature by about 2 degrees F or 1* C per day. More than this can add more stress to the fish.
In cool water tanks Ich may live for several weeks, and in a pond for several months. Fish kept in these settings generally are not tolerant to increasing the temperature, so the treatment will take longer.
More about temperature: It used to be that Ich could be killed by sustained temperatures over 86*F. The problem is getting the WHOLE volume of water this temperature, even under the gravel. (Bare bottom tank is easier). However, there has been another form of Ich discovered that is resistant to any temperature that is safe for the fish. If you can get the temperature up this high (over 86*F), you may still kill the Ich, but if it does not die, your fish may have 'Super Ich'. Super Ich is also resistant to the common Ich meds.

Medicines that treat Ich:

Salt. Sodium Chloride. Add salt slowly, over several days. 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons is a moderate dose, 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons is a stronger dose. Add the day's worth of salt to a cup of tank water and pour it into the tank slowly, over several hours. Next day, do the same. 3rd day, the same. At this point you will have 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons (strong dose) or 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons (milder dose) in the tank. Whenever you do water changes add the proper dose of salt to the new water so the level stays the same for the full course of treatment.
Salt can be the iodide- and anti-caking-free forms such as Kosher, pickling, water softener, or aquarium salt if you have any worries about iodide or anti-caking ingredients (read the labels to be sure). I have used table salt (with anti-caking ingredients and iodide) for short term use with no problem. Do not use Epsom salt, or the salt and mineral blend that replicates ocean water.

Rid Ich: A Kordon product, active ingredients Formalin and Malachite Green. (These ingredients are common to many Ich treatments.) Labeled to be a gentler medicine for sensitive fish. You can also ease the fishes' introduction to the meds by dosing similar to the salt: Add half the dose in the AM and more later in the day. There are instructions on the label for dosing weaker or stronger fish. Remove activated carbon from the filter. May stain silicone and some other stuff in the aquarium. If you use Amquel Plus dechlorinator switch to something else while using a Malachite Green based medicine.

Coppersafe and other copper products. These seem safe for the fish, but fish keepers who have used copper preparations have noticed that shrimp and snails also die, and the effects seem to linger for a long time, as if the copper has not been fully removed from the water, making it impossible to keep shrimp or snails in tanks that have been treated. Remove activated carbon from the filter.

Clout (long list of unpronounceable ingredients) by Aquarium Products. A much stronger medicine, not for use on delicate fish. Remove activated carbon from the filter.

Ultra Violet Sterilizer: Will kill the Theront phase. Safe for all fish.

Combining treatments: DO NOT combine medicines unless BOTH are labeled as safe for use with each other. Part of this is that 2 meds may combine chemically to form toxic substances. It can also be that each medicine weakens the fish just a little bit, but the combined effects of 2 medicines are more than a fish (already under stress from Ich) can tolerate. UV may deactivate some meds.

Here is one possible treatment schedule. I have dosed per sturdy fish in a 10 gallon tank.

Day 1: Water change emphasizing gravel vac (I am using the term gravel vac even if you have a bare bottom tank- same idea- do a water change that emphasizes the removal of whatever is on the bottom of the tank) Add 2 teaspoons of salt in a cup of tank water, spread out over the course of the day. Increase the temperature by 2*F. (Note the cautions above about aeration in the tank as you are raising the temperature)

Day 2: Add 2 teaspoons of salt over the course of the day and increase the temperature by 2*F.

Day 3: Water change emphasizing gravel vac. Add salt to the new water at the rate of 2 teaspoons per 5 gallons to match the current dose in the tank. Add more salt (2 more teaspoons) over the course of the day and increase the temperature by 2*F.

Day 4 and beyond: Continue water changes every other day (daily is even better) remembering to add salt at the rate of 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons to the replacement water. Continue to raise the temperature if the fish are handling it OK.

Continue treatment until at lease 3 days beyond the day you saw the last Ich spot on the fish. Remember the phases of the life cycle: A spot that falls off the fish does not become vulnerable to meds (actually it is the babies that are vulnerable) for a day or so after falling off the fish. The meds need to be there to kill these last babies. If you are treating a cool water tank keep the meds at therapeutic levels for a week beyond the day you saw the last spot on the fish.

Begin to reduce the salt and temperature SLOWLY. Do small water changes that do not contain salt.
If you have used other medicines do larger water changes and add activated carbon to the filter.
Reduce the temperature at the rate of 1*F per day.

Additional meds: Fish under stress tend to lose more body fluids than healthy fish. Increasing the total dissolved solids (TDS) in the water reduces this tendency. You can add salt (Sodium Chloride) at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons, if the medicine you are using is labeled for salt water. This is not a high enough dose to kill Ich, but is generally safe even for fish that are sensitive to salt for the short term of treatment, and helps them regulate the amount of fluid in their cells.

I have heard of using antibiotics with or following Ich treatment, with the thought being that fish in a weakened condition may be more vulnerable to bacterial infections. DO NOT combine meds unless BOTH are labeled for use with each other. I have not had Ich followed by bacterial infections, but simply monitor the fish following the Ich treatment and be ready to treat for whatever else may show up. I do not think they need to be treated for some unknown disease that does not seem to be present.

Nitrifying bacteria and Ich treatment.
Some medicines can kill or weaken the colony of nitrifying bacteria. Monitor the water for ammonia and nitrite and be ready to do water changes as needed to keep the ammonia under .25 ppm and the nitrite under 1 ppm. When you do water changes for any reason during Ich treatment re-dose whatever medicine you are using to maintain the therapeutic dose in the tank. Once the medicine is cleared from the water you may want to add nitrifying bacteria to the tank either a bottled product like Tetra Safe Start or Dr. Tim's One and Only, or else add some filter media from a cycled, healthy tank. (Do not swap filter media: you might be adding Ich to the healthy tank, just get some media from a healthy tank and add it to the recovering tank)

Do not cross-contaminate healthy tanks and sick tanks. Use separate equipment on the various tanks, and treat the equipment to kill whatever disease or parasite you are treating in the hospital tank.

Ich does not survive without a host. If you lose all the fish in a tank I would run the tank for a few weeks with frequent water changes and gravel vacs and keep the bacteria fed with ammonia, similar to the fishless cycle in my signature. (add ammonia to the 3 ppm level daily until you are ready to re-populate the tank, then do as big a water change as needed to reduce the nitrate as close to 0 ppm as possible). Ich can live in the gills of fish, and can exist at a low population level so that you may not be aware that a fish has Ich. This is what is likely behind the thought that Ich can be 'dormant'. It has no dormant phase.

When any one fish in the tank shows Ich the whole tank has Ich. You cannot see Ich in the gills or on the floor of the tank, but you must assume it is there, ready to re-infest the fish. You may separate the fish to different tanks according to their medicine tolerances for treatment, all these tanks then become hospital tanks and need to be treated, even if you do not see Ich on all the fish.
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Hello Natnat,

I don't see any signs of ICH. What I do see resembles a scrape or boo boo of some sort Possibly the fish scraped itself on an ornament or something?

If the fish do indeed have ICH the fish will appear to have been sprinkled with salt.

Using salt isn't necessary for ICH with the increased heat treatment.

Too, Clown Loaches may not tolerate salt.

My ICH Treatment Method:

Although not every fish may show signs of the Ich parasite, the entire tank is infected and should be treated.

Too, some fish that contract ICH may only get it once.

Increase the tanks temperature to 86 degrees and leave it there for a full two week period. Even if the fish appear to be free of the parasite, leave the temperature increased for the full two weeks. Raise the temperature slowly throughout the day. 2 degrees per hour should be fine. After treatment, reduce the temperature slowly throughout the day.

Warmer water requires more oxygen so adding an air stone/supply line may help.

Do two gravel vacuums each week to remove the spores that fall off the fish and into the substrate. Make sure the new water is the same (86) temperature as what is in the tank.

Adding Garlic Guard or garlic juice onto the fish food 2 or 3 times each week will help to boost the fishes immune system. (link below for garlic juice):
minced garlic in a jar..just an example for those needing it
Garlic Guard:
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/198657/product.web

Vita Chem (for additional vitamins) added to the fish food and directly into the tank will help the fishes overall health. Follow the directions on the bottle.
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/196391/product.web

It's been my experience that salt isn't necessary with the heat treatment.

I highly recommend Quarantine for all new fish:
Quick and dirty quarantine setup

Best wishes for your fish!

 

Like I said, I would rather not get into a discussion about whitespot as it has been dealt with in other posts in great detail. Nice to see that you got more info from other sources as well, good habit to get into and some good general advice there by those sources (QT tank specifically).

Regards
E

 

hey dude.

we've had a very similar discussion regarding ick on loaches here: http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?4875-Ick&highlight=loach

this might make some interesting reading for you in any event.

with regards to your temperature, remember that loaches need to be in the higher ranges, that is, above 27deg, say 28deg would be more preferable.. make sure that the other fish in your tank is ok with that temperatures..

be cool

 

I agree.... Can't see whitespot on them. They look "clean"

 

Hi all

One other thing to remember before adding more large fish to the tank is the "size" of the bio filtration, not just the tank size or maturity of the existing bio filter. It may be a good idea to add another filter. External cannister filters work very well as you can add a really large amount of bio media. I would get another filter, which in any event is a good idea as you now don't have a single point of failure in your system. Stuff it with used sponges etc which you may be able to get from the seller's tank. Add Zeolite to compensate for a possible NH4 spike. Do 30% WC every 2nd day for the next 3 weeks. If you do all that you should be able to add all of them at once without any issues. You may also consider adding a ton of floating hornwort. The loaches will certainly appreciate the cover as they start to get used to their new environment.

 

Hey Laure

Thank you for your mail, very encouraging! I have 2 external canister filters and one built in one so i think i am fine. I also got a "sponge" today from a very established tank to help boost up my bacteria. Finally (I couldn’t get hold of G1) but instead i added some PSB Bacteria. as you suspected my nitrite is high between 0.5-1 I must be in the second stage of the cycle and doing daily water change of 15% . i hope the system will stabilize soon

 

Nitrites are extremely toxic to fish, and loaches will be some of the first to suffer from them, so definitely keep it up till it's much lower.

 

Bit off topic(and I do apologise...),but just read an article called:

Vaccine developed to save fish from deadly parasite - 27 August 2010,By Thomas H. Maugh II in the Los Angeles Times...

A Dr. Dehai Xu from the U.S Department of Agricultural research has developed a vaccination against ich that if injected,gives fish a 90% survival rate against the parasite... Used as a bath,60% of fish introduced to the parasite survived... Hats off to this guy...now just wait till the stuff reaches us here at the @$$ end of Africa...

 

We're not quite the @ss end... more like the belly button.

And it'll be a while until it's ready for use (remembering now it only has a 60% survival rate), and even then it'll probably be marketed first for fish on aquaculture farms where the fish are farmed for food. Won'y be too long after that when they use it for ornamentals.