Snails - I'm confused

I have to say, I've been wondering about this myself... My thinking is exactly the same as yours. I would love to see this cleared up.

 

Ditto

 

Freshwater Fish Blacklist

 

No, they aren't on the blacklist, but they are, according to the following link, still banned for import. However, almost all petshops/LFSs will openly sell apple snails. I'm guessing these are locally bred snails then?
http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?7568-Discussion-of-snails-on-TASA

 

I found this link were Henk also had a discussion on http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/archive/index.php/t-63.html in 2008 and he also states the same as Zoom in the thread you found @Zeiphex.

I remember this being discussed on a number of occasions and the general consensus is that if it already is hear then it’s okay but I don’t see how that works. So if it is smuggled in and no one gets nabbed for it and is able to propagate them then its ok it does not make sense. How far back in time do they give leniency to snails that are already here or is it only apple snails and Malaysian Trumpets?

It seems this needs clarification again? @Zoom and @Henk Hugo

 

This is a condition for importing PLANTS and as such needs to be read in context. It is by no ways a law to declare any local mollusc population, or any intended import of molluscs illegal. I have no use for blacklists or whitelists. What I need to know is:
Is it legal to keep the apple snail I bought from my from my Lfs? (ie not imported) (I suspect it is)
Is it legal to breed and re-sell the offspring of this apple snail? (I suspect it might not be.)

I would really appreciate it if somebody can clear this up for me?

 

Hi all.

The new train of thought that Dirk confirmed with me a few weeks ago was that if the plant it propagated within the borders of SA, then it was safe to trade. This agreement does not however extend to fish and livestock.

HOWEVER... The moderators and Admin of this forum have decided that in order to keep control and show a respect to the blacklist of South Africa, we will maintain our current ruling and NOT allow the trading of ANY blacklist plants under any circumstance. When you joined TASA, these are the terms and conditions you agreed to, so please don't flood me with emails, PM's and messages that you feel we are over-riding your right to sell. We are privy to information of the fact that the relevant governmental departments have been working on the new blacklist, and when this becomes law, we will sit and discuss our ruling.


The issue that Zebra Pleco has raised is not related to the plants. It is related specifically to snails. Mollusks to be more specific.

The general ruling in the past has been that because all importation of plants need to be accompanied by a phytosanitary certification, basically a certificate claiming that the plants are snail free, we ask the question why? If snails are not prohibited from importation, then why are there such strict rules with regards to this certification? (And I believe from my discussions with people who do import plants that this is a definite must have for plant imports). Logic then prevails, and we have assumed therefore that snails are banned.

The second train of thought here is that we all know snails to be invasive and detrimental. This is a no-brainer.

And the final thought pattern here. The blacklist refers to all species of Crustaceans are blacklisted. Mulluscs are a phylum (division) of invertebrates, which is commonly accepted as being included under the Crustacean SPP.


The third though pattern is actually not what makes me put snails on the blacklist in my mind. My Biology extends only as far as matric, so I cannot with conviction state that Invertebrates are in fact under the same heading as Crustacean. Logic says it does, but I would not put this as a life or death answer. The fact that no snails may be imported, coupled with the fact that plants are checked for the phytosanitary certification leads me to believe that snails are most definitely prohibited.

We as the mods cannot with 100% conviction tell you all that snails are banned based on these assumptions, no matter how logical these assumptions may seem. However we have been moderating snail threads based on these assumptions, and when called into question, we explain using the phytosanitary certification explanation. Thus, Zebra Pleco has requested someone to bring some sort of (current) documentation that either prohibits snails within SA, or groups snails as one of the blacklisted families that are noted in the current blacklist.

If snail can therefore be categorized biologically as part of the crustacean family, then we have the ruling.

 

If you search the archives..... (approximtely 2 years ago).... I was severely tapped on the fingers and my post unconditionally removed when I as much as mentioned an apple in the thread.... I'm sure Henk can shed more light on this..... I still have some correspondence on this filed somewhere where I used the exact same arguement (or rather - reasoning)..... I'll see if I can find it....

 

I am afraid a mollusc cannot be clasified as a crustacean.

When it comes to gardening, there is a law on plants that are banned or unwanted. This is about plants already in gardens, and has nothing to do with imports. Some plants are banned outright. Some are declared undesirable, but you are allowed to keep any specimens you have. You are, however, not allowed to propagate and sell them. This law is used to regulate the nursery industry. What I was looking for is a similar law that regulates the local aquaculture industry. Unfortunately, I could not find such a law, if it exists. (And I am sure it does). Now if someone can point me to that law........

 

Hi

I can tell you with certainty that Mollusca and Crustacea are quite unrelated. Mollusca is a phylum by itself. Crustacea is a group (subphylum) which falls under the phylum Arthropoda. The groups split a very, very long time ago.

I personally don't think that they should be coupled with the crustaceans on the blacklist, as these groups greatly differ. I do, however, understand their potential invasiveness and possible damage to local aquatic ecosystems. So, as with any other pet, I do advocate their keeping so long as it is done responsibly and every effort is made to ensure they aren't accidentally released to the wild.

However, my stance will change once I see the documentation which confirms the legalities about the molluscs.

Regards,

 

This is where I get confused...

Crustacean is defined as mostly "Any of various widespread arthropods of the class Crustacea that live mostly in water and have a hard shell, a segmented body, and jointed appendages. Crustaceans include crabs, lobsters, shrimp, barnacles, and copepods. "

So based on that definition alone I throw molluscs out because they do not have jointed appendages... but then you follow what an arthropod is, and the definition I get there is that it is any invertebrate with an external shell or skeleton.


As I've said, my biology goes as far back as matric. My LOGIC is based on my research, which is inconclusive at best.



This thread is NOT about your upsets of us closing your snail threads down guys. So please don't get emotionally angry or heated over this. We are looking for conclusive proof that snails are either on or off the blacklist. That's it. If they are off the blacklist, then we will relook at our ruling on them, but up until now, the general ruling has been that they are prohibited.

 

We want nothing more.

 

Thank Tim

My logic which I noted from the start as being inconclusive is cemented as busted.

 

Well I also wanna know about this Snail issue, The same as Cheeth has mentioned, I have also been Tapped and told when I joined the forum
not to dicuss opening and privately.
So yeah maybe this can clear up.
Or my stance will be the same (not to dicuss)

 

http://www.daff.gov.za/docs/AMCP/AquacultureMVCP11-12.pdf

The above document might just give another perspective of this subject. I did a lot of surfing the last two days to determine the legality of keeping moluscs. I did not find any indication that it is illegal to keep moluscs in South Africa. Far from it!!!! I never realised that the local aquaculture industry exports nearly 20 million tons of cultivated moluscs per year! So, unless anybody proves otherwise, I will consider the keeping and breeding of moluscs as legal.

 

i dont know so much , they have licences / permits. and theortically controls in place to stop the species leaving their area alive as such. ( or should) tilapia is blacklisted but is common in most of our rivers. if we were allowed to indiscriminately breed and dispose of as we would like we would have nothing else left in our rivers. yet it is one of the worlds biggest feed fish.
you pay the bucks for the permit and are required to ensure they do not escape in to local waters.

take the bl as a guideline for the future. say for example , i brought in one marmokerb ( that is definitely blacklisted, ) all you need is one to escape and then we have a problem. unlike normal lobsters which if only one got out would prolly die before getting to water , or llive solitary til it die.


my point being if you can buy a bl species, just be responsible, in the way you dispose of them, if its plants burn them , fish ensure they are dead , snails etc , that they are dead and not carrying any eggs.

 

@halo123. I think the fact that I tried to determine the legality of keeping a species, should indicate to you that I will try to stay on the right side of the law. Thus, if there are any permits or regulations involved, I will certainly abide by these. As for allowing an animal to escape in our local waters, surely we are all beyond that point?