Mystery disease

Hi, hoping anyone can shed some light on a potential disease in my Boyu 130l community tank. Please bear with me on the long post.

The tank has been running for around 4 years - 2 years ago I took it over from my brother and got back into the hobby.
Ran faultlessly for ages, months and months, but I eventually encountered the usual things like Ick, and at one point had a callamanus worm infestation on a couple of fish that I managed to resolve with levamisole.
Part of that routine was a lot of thorough cleaning and water changing. Problem resolved, and no issues for 2 or 3 months since. I will now routinely use 'Nemarid' every 3 months as advocated to keep that from ever happening to me again as it is a nightmare to deal with.

Around 3 weeks ago I had one of my remaining two white skirt tetras showing pop-eye symptoms to my amazement given it usually indicates low water quality, but into QT tank it went. I used Kanaplex to try and treat, to no avail and lost it.

I should mention - I keep the tank well maintained and clean (at least 50% w/c per week, usually a bit more, spread out) and the water parameters are always a consistent 0; 0; 10-15 (Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates) with temperature at 27/8 C. I've been testing a lot lately and tended to now and again anyway.

Circulation of water seems good and I clean out the pump every couple months. Filter foam every 2 - 4 weeks. Lots of ceramic rings, lots of Matrix, and more recently added Purigen which cleaned things up further still. Remember also that I did a major clean of every crevice not long ago for the callamanus worms, in tank water of course. Heavy substrate vacuuming with fish out of the tank in buckets. Rinsed plants - all of them, including wood and rocks, under shower. Then a rinse in tank water in a bucket before back into the tank. Negligible concern for lost BB on those as there plenty media in the main tank.
Aeration is good with a spraybar permanently creating gas exchange at the water surface, and I also have a large air stone with suitably strong air pump. I leave the lid's small feeding flap open as well.

As to tank setup, I don't know if there is anything more I could do to improve things. MAYBE a stronger water pump as mine is a bit old (can't recall exact flow-rate but was more than sufficient when I got it) but that seems a long shot.

KH is 2-3, GH 4-6. PH is a consistent 6.9 these days. It used to be 6.3 as I used a bit of spring water mixed with tap (spring PH 5.8) to suit the 3 rams in the tank, but recently I gradually raised it bit by bit with 10-15% W/C every day or two over a week period as I ultimately didn't need it that low and tap in CT is as soft as the spring water. I use Prime every w/c. I don't age the water, which I realise isn't ideal, but for temperature matching in winter its a mission, especially when dealing with any issues or medication that needs suitably large W/C. I test the tap and tank PH quite often given it has fluctuated in CT lately.

Other fish include:
3 x medium sized angels
3 x smallish clown loaches which will ultimately go into a friend's 2m tank when he is back in CT
2 x SAE (maybe 8cm long)
2 x remaining silver tip tetras out of an initial 6 when I took the tank over
2 x medium sized swordtails
1 x 'accidental catch' guppy

Tank is quite well planted with a large piece of driftwood, gravel with root tabs as substrate.

So, red flags:

- One of my silvertips (I had 3 originally) vanished 2 weeks back and was gone before I could locate it's body. So big water changes and gravel vac was done and the tank looked and smelled clean. Happens to everyone so that should not be a catastrophe. I figured old age as they are huge and been around a while.
- Maybe 2 months ago I saw some weird white film at the top of the filter area (Boyu tank with the filtration area behind a wall at the back of the tank). Wiped it off, did a large W/C.
- One of my rams then developed pop-eye, after the original white skirt tetra. Again, a few w/c and a Kanaplex dose (assuming a bacterial issue) to the whole tank. It cleared up and seemed fine less than a week later.
I should also mention that through all of this - all my fish have acted normally and eaten normally. I don't overfeed. They eat Tetra Pro Colour flakes; Some other Tetra flake food which picky eater angels prefer, Hikari vibrabites; Some pellet for the loaches I can't recall (they go mad for it); Boiled de-shelled peas every few days; Cucumber every few days again for digestion; Frozen bloodworm/ brine shrimp/ Daphnia. Sometimes some microworms as I have excess during my ram breeding.

A week later I dosed the tank with Prazipro as a precaution, and again no issues. I had given then Metroplex as part of the callamanus treatment routine, so Prazipro should be covering any parasitic bases so to speak.
- A different ram suddenly became sick. No symptoms. Into QT it went. Next day it had frayed fins even though it was alone in a 38l, so indicative of a bacterial infection again. Kanaplex dose, as well as vitamin C drops added. Water of the QT pristine and matched parameters of main tank.
- Original ram that had pop-eye resolved suddenly became sick in the main tank, having been completely normal the day before. Zero external symptoms, looked 100%, just started breathing heavily. Dead the next afternoon, before he even made it to QT. Never seen a fish die so fast, with no symptoms at all, even rams being sensitive fish as they are. Crazy.
- I developed a small rash on one of my fingers maybe 3 weeks ago that hasn't fully healed. So, possibly infected while working in the tank. It's improved with bentonite clay, but not fully healed. That led me to looking into fish TB, which I suppose might be the issue at hand, even though its rare. Is read your horror leg story @MariaS - what was that infection specifically? My wound doesn't look anything as bad as images of fish TB online but will get it looked at.

I now have one of my loaches looking unhappy. Just lethargic and not its usual self, for the second day. No loss of colour, no markings on its body, nothing. A symptomless problem, like the ram. Only symptoms I saw were the pop-eye and eventual fraying of fins on the other ram that died. It lost a bit of colour by the time it passed too, and had begun to swim erratically at the very end. I would assume a serious bacterial infection.

Again sorry for the long read, just trying to be thorough. I don't have space for all the fish to move into unless I buy a temporary 3/ 4ft tank, which is also a hassle but possible.
I dosed Paraguard this morning out of desperation and am at a loss. If it is indeed fish TB, I read the disease takes months to kill any fish. The rams that died showed no issues and were in QT for a month and maybe 3 weeks in main tank, so that diagnosis doesn't add up. I will probably place all the fish in buckets this weekend and do a 100% W/C and yet another major clean.

I'm so frustrated that I'm close to sterilising the tank and selling it. Would prefer not to do that as I have other fish that seem 100%. Yet, I can't move them to my smaller tanks as they may bring whatever mystery disease is in the main tank with them to other tanks that are fine. I can't give away or sell for the same reason. I certainly don't want to watch them gradually die off either.

Lost as to what I can do. If anyone has any thoughts, help would be appreciated.

 

Too much biological waste in your system is what's causing you grief. You'll have to rip it apart and clean everything, I'm leaning towards your gravel being the trouble maker. The same bacteria that grows in a septic tank starts growing after a while as it's consuming the waste the fish produces. After a few years a gravel vac doesn't help anymore and you have to sterilize the gravel again, bleach will do a fine job with this. Also don't use too much floss, 1 pad is enough.

It sounds like a major job but it really isn't. It will take one afternoon to do. You just rip out everything, bleach the gravel, rinse it well and use prime if you are paranoid and rescape. Easy as that. To avoid this in the future plant every cm of the bottom with rooted plants. The roots keeps the gravel oxygenated so anaerobic bacteria can't take hold. Look at cryps, swords and vallis for easy to maintenance.

Your vigorous water changes and cleaning is what kept it at bay for those months, the problem is they are still there and reproducing, just at a slower rate.

 

Thank you for the input, I've not heard of gravel getting to the point where it needs that but will do as advised this weekend. When dealing with callamanus worms I really cleaned it thoroughly - at the same time I just rinsed out the extensive matrix/ ceramics and sponge in a bucket a bit so figured that BB would still be plenty suitable and I'd covered my bases? Sheesh - guess not. Also only use minimal filter floss as a polisher on top of the main sponge, maybe 4cm thick x 10 x 10cm.

That's my Sunday mapped out!

 

And that cleaning was what made it run for a while without problems for those couple of months, they where still there just in low enough numbers to not cause problems. As they multiplied your problems came back, you have to kill them all. You do this by sterilizing the gravel and decor with bleach or PP. I know guys that do this weekly with sand in discus tanks for this very reason as discus are very sensitive to bacteria.

Once you are done, the tank will run clean for a long time again. It's just one of those things that happen, a closed system with feces is a glorified septic tank if you think about it. The whole system is designed to break down waste and after a while you'll have nasty bacteria roaming around. I have to totally strip and clean my sumps every 6-8 months to avoid this problem. This bacteria buildup is normal in a closed system. And you will smell them once that gravel is in a bucket. It stinks. Planting the bottom with rooted plants helps a lot. I'm on year 3 on my one planted tank and it has no signs of bacteria yet, touch wood.

 

What @BoelderBeestie said.

I just did a makeover on a tank, man the gravel smelled like a fish pond that's never been cleaned. It was that bad and it was only fully cleaned 6 months ago.

 

Your BB is fine, you would have had other symptoms like milky water and white fins and eyes on your fish if the BB where killed. The fish would have been very sick and it kills quickly. You would also have smelled it. It has a distinct smell when NO2 hits you.

 

Interesting, I see the logic in what you're saying. All this time I'd just do the usual gravel vac, alternating halves every couple weeks, etc. Essentially a minor service when a major service is needed.
Never bleached gravel before. I see varied doses online - what mix of bleach + water would recommend? I see 80-20; 50-50, etc.
I'll only be able to do this tomorrow or Sunday so will do a 30% w/c this morning to hopefully help for now.

ill sort it out this weekend and hope for the best. Thanks again

 

I have no problems with snails as long as they eat algae not my plants.

 

Use a 20/80 mix. 20% being the bleach. Get regular bleach not scented.

 

Ha! Yup have done some general reading and will get on that plan tomorrow too. Someone suggested just stirring up the substrate in small circles with a plastic chopstick or similar every week during a W/C (wherever there are no rooted plants) to help prevent the problem happening.
You are probably ok with such a new setup - this tank of mine has been running 4 years plus - but prevention is better than cure! More plants appeals to me anyway as the tank is already pretty lush and I have a few more unused root tabs that I'll add.

I'll eventually strip the tank down completely to refurbish and if I keep it will likely use ADA or similar. I have fine black diamond gravel, mixed with some larger white stones, and the fine stuff scratches very easily unless I'm super careful.
Hope the planting went well.

 

Well, modified my plan a bit. Picked up an extra 38l/ 10gal tank on Friday eve as part of a good deal on a few things, complete with a little ADA soil + powersand in it. Tank was running when I got there to pick it up, with an Aquaclear 20 HOB + heater, and suddenly I had extra capacity for the fish in the bigger tank.
So, they are now split across my 2 x 38l tanks, which are pretty bare aside from some hornwort, water lettuce and some plastic decorations. Also some of the media (and 70% water) from the main tank.
I had lost my ill clown loach (always hurts to lose a loach as they are such personable fish) the day before, then my female swordtail yesterday, so I just wanted the rest of them out of danger asap given how quick infection to death has been. Transfer went well.

The larger tank in question (Boyu HS60) is now emptied and I can do a more thorough clean up/ refurbishment at the same time as the gravel bleaching. Might end up using something different as a substrate though, given the issues I had with the dense gravel, so will do some thinking and researching.
Also depends on how well it comes out after some TLC, if I keep or sell, but I like the size and proportions of it given my other tanks are shallow.

 

Thanks - the other two loaches and fish seem fine for now so hoping it stays that way.
And yeah I will possibly keep it - I'm easily bothered about scratches and while they are not major I think it will depend on how well I can buff them out. I have glass polish that works wonders so will give it a good shot.

If the tank does go it won't be long until there is a replacement for it! Your Juwel 180 is the exact tank I'd maybe consider - ideal size for my needs and they are made so well. There was a Juwel 125 LED on Gumtree last week which was a good deal and as new condition - ad may still be up - quite tempting but bad timing.

It tends to takes time to convince a newer hobbyist of the merits of a quarantine tank, but if you have a good sized main tank/s then it's especially worth it, both for sake of fish and wallet (med doses on big tanks- eish). If you keep your smaller tank at similar water conditions then you can at least move fish between them to treat in the smaller one.
My 2 x 38l are AquaH20 curved, rimless tanks and nice QT options I think. They don't make them anymore but Sam's/ Aquatic Warehouse had a couple for I think R350 each still in stock when I got mine. If ever they become something other than a QT then they're nice looking nano tanks to work with, especially with the garish plastic bits removed, which I did. Also, standard LED light sizes fit them perfectly, and they are 5mm thick glass, which I like.

 

Ha! Yeah they are just really nicely made (typically German I guess) - the black silicon is flawlessly neat which I dig. I assume the standard filtration is good? That tank has won a bunch of awards so must be good.
I'd otherwise do an external filter or sump on a custom build. I've seen some pretty good ones locally (often Gapedi tanks)- I like 'Optiwite' glass tanks too but don't see them in CT anywhere? Popular with the scaper crowd. Rehau are Chinese clones of the Juwel and I'd consider one but not looked too closely at them.

And I can relate to the QT tank dilemma - you only realise the value once things go south! I would at least keep a spare heater and filter on hand - for a hospital tank even a large tupperware tub works fine. Seen some in local hardwares that have really good clarity/ translucency if you ever buy a new one. So, you use it for general storage until it has to become a tank. Easier to pacify the significant other that way haha. My girlfriend just shakes her head these days when she comes into my office. The rams aren't gonna breed themselves