How about giving your local lfs a break?

Hi all

This is just a rant about our (fishkeepers') attitude towards our lfs.

Lately there have been posts about "name and shame" bad lfs, and other threads where the incompetence of people working at lfs are exclaimed over and over again. First of I would like to state that I often was part of these threads, so I am definetely not innocent. I do however feel we must take constructive actions toward improving the situation, instead of just continuing with name calling and complaining.....

I would like you guys to take the following into consideration the next time someone at a lfs tells you something which isn't 100% correct:

• How long is that person working there? the fishkeeping field is to big for someone to know everything immediately, give the new guy a chance to settle. If this guy has an interest in fish (which I hope he has if he works at a lfs), he/she most probably only have knowledge of the fish he/she is keeping..... give them time to learn.
• Often when going to a lfs, looking for something or having a question, us dedicated fishkeeping folk would have already done extensive homework, and often only want confirmation from a person, not google, hence going to a lfs. The guy you ask your question has no preparation, and can easily make a mistake.
• The fact of the matter is lfs assistants are not a highly paid occupation, therefore people who often have that position are people like students or people urgently needing a job, so they might not even have fish of there own. Especially in shops where fish isn't the only thing, the person might actually be more into birds or reptiles.....

Now: I am not making excuses for when the lfs dude tells you a bunch of bolony without even trying, or when they thumb suck knowingly.

I am just saying: Appreciate the guys who help you properly more! The assistants who are starting out and strugling, don't be hard on them, maybe even be part of there training. No rules saying customers may not help train assistants!! Especially when you are only browsing in any case!!

Also: Remember that assistants 99% of the time have no say in the pricing or policies of the lfs. If you see ridiculous priced fish, or tatood parrots, take it up with the owner, not the assistant.

They are few and far between, but their is shop owners and assistants out there who know their stuff, and truly want to help the customers, not just make a sale. Appreciate these guys.

End of rant!

 

well defended !!

 

I do agree in principal that one cannot blame the assistant for the fish-keeping practices of the shop, and I do agree that overly emotive name-calling and complaining does nothing to remedy the situation.

However, when it comes to the welfare of the animal, be those mammals or cold-blooded critters, we cannot condone abuse, be that intentional or due to ignorance.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". I personally refuse to support the LPS that tells a customer that their new betta will be perfectly fine in a 2 liter glass jar. Or that has more dead fish than live ones in their display tanks, or that stuck a poor arowana or oscar in a tank so small it can barely move, or that sells non aquatic plants to the bright-eyed and eager customer, or sells 5 goldfish and a bowl to a small child and its parents.

There are few shops in my area that I do support, and those I know are run as humanely as commercial operation can.

 

In PE i find the LFS's to be plain rude!!!

 

lol as someone who has spent close on 2 decades working in LFS's.... Can I also present "our" side...that of the fish tank jockey....

- For every one TASA type person(someone who understands the nitrogen cycle at least,knows a fish by name,if not scientific name) - there are at least 50 total morons who should have their tanks taken away....that's frustrating beyond belief....
- Respect our time (PLEASE) - LFS shop staff isnt just there to hang around and serve you... they generally do ALL the maintenance in the shop(try waterchanging on average 2000l of water by bucket per day and you'll see how you feel at the end of the day)
- If you think a specific staff member has given you good service or advice - tell his manager or the owner - so often customers will just report negatively...forgetting the 200 times said person gave them good advice....

For various reasons I dont work in the industry no more - my corporate job these days is a total BREEZE compared to slaving over a hot fish tank....lol
-

 

I understand that there are new shop attendees and that they are still learning.

My problem is that when that new guy pretend he knows everything and go around telling clients BS.

I would be glad if he tells me listen I am new and I am not sure so maybe check on google or I will call someone that knows more then me.

 

I find it very interesting that we have a lot of LPS/LFS slating on the forum, and I take my hat off to @PappaBear for this thread. I appreciate @azurekoi coming on board here and sharing his side of the story, and I'd actually like to extend a further invitation to @Jungle Aquatics and @Moolis as well as @Lanzo to come on board here to give us some of their opinions. We are all aware of @scott who runs his own shop, and I feel we can give him the platform here to share his side of the story as well.

I always like to give the "underdog" the opportunity, and I tend to side with them and try walk a mile in their shoes for a short while before jumping to any conclusion. In this instance, many believe that the client is the "underdog", however I'd like to ask you to just look at it from the LPS/LFS being the "underdog" for a change.

Firstly we need to be very specific here when we refer to LPS and LFS. A LPS, as the acronym states, is a Local PET shop. Meaning they DO NOT SPECIALIZE in fish only. A LFS is a local FISH shop.. where the core business function is Fish. I'll be quite honest here, I do not know of ANY true LFS shops in my area... and the one dismal LFS shop (guppies for yuppies) in Helderkruin closed it's doors about 18 months ago.

Pet stores are traditionally located in shopping malls, strip malls, or shopping complexes. My wife works for the Tintswalo Property Group, which is the owners of Lonehill Mall, Bel Air shopping centre (recently aquired), as well as Carswald shopping centre along with others they are currently building in Queenstown, Nelspruit and other areas I have forgotten. I can tell you without a doubt that rent is not cheap. Finished and kla. Period. One of this highest overheads that any pet store will have is rent.

Traditionally the staff of any retail outlet is built up of the store owner, a floor manager, and then a whole bunch of (for lack of a more appropriate term) cheaper sales assistants. The core function of a sales assistant is to assist the client FIND the stuff, and ensure that the shelves are stocked, clean, correctly labeled etc etc etc. Sadly a sales assistant position is actually a high turnover position, and I recall from when I was managing a store, the average sales assistant only hung around for 6-12 months at a time.

Let's also be honest here, there is actually very little places where you can send these staff for even semi decent training. And whilst suppliers are generally more than happy to come on board and assist with training seminars at the shops, the rate of staff turn over makes this very challenging.

So firstly, you have very high staff turnover, and let's be honest here, generally the staff are just working there because they need the job. Just because fish keeping is YOUR hobby, does not mean that it needs to be the hobby of the sales assistant. I do my job because i need to pay the rent, buy nappies, and feed my wife... not because construction is a hobby of mine.
Secondly you need to also look at the "income per square meter" of your shop. Fish tanks actually take up a huge volume of floor space, but bring in very little income for the shop in relation to stuff like dog and cat food. So if you find a shop that has a lot of fish tanks, you can bet your bottom zim dollar that you are possibly going to spend a little more on the fish than if you were to go somewhere else.

It all comes down to the rules of economics at the end of the day.

Yes I agree that LPS staff are not the greatest knowledge givers when making the sale. But you know what, at the end of the day, that staff member needs to earn his or her salary and possibly commission.

You as a client need to do your research before hand. And yes, we have all been caught by the "trusty lps". And yes, every new member comes to TASA asking for help because he trusted the LPS. Unfortunately if it wasn't for the LPS messing us around so much, we wouldn't have such active forums like this. Again, if it wasn't for LPS messing us around, there would probably be more people in the hobby.

Put it this way... if it wasn't for the reputation of builder's, there would be a whole lot more people building. BUT, if it wasn't for builder's, you wouldn't have anyone to build you home!

The biggest advice I have always given new members... FIND THE LPS that YOU are happy to support. Forget about location, and forget about price. If you KNOW you will get the best service by travelling an extra 40km, and spending a little more, you will enjoy the hobby that much more! And secondly, ALWAYS give any LPS a second chance. The day you may experience terrbile service may be because you dealt with the wrong person, and when you go back again, you find that the correct person gives you the perfect advice.

When I started out in the hobby I use to buy all my stuff from the LPS in Westgate. Now I've heard all the rumours, and I've listened to people complaining. BUT, when I wanted to buy my first fish tank, I was lucky enough to actually be helped by the store owner. Fortunately for me, the store owner actually also keeps fish, and is very passionate about the hobby himself. That being said... when I bought the tank, he refused to let me by fish the same day. And in order to prevent me from going somewhere else, he told me to come back the following weekend, and he will GIVE me my first 6 free of charge... and he know what size he could give me. He explained the Nitrogen cycle to me, and how to cycle the tank. When I went back the following weekend, I had to take a sample of my water with, and then I was given my free fish. By the same token, there has been many a time when I have walked into exactly the same shop, and seen the sales assistant selling completely incompatible fish to a new client. Same shop, different assistant... different outcome.

Find the shop that YOU are happy with, and then the PERSON within the shop you are happy with.

That's my say on the topic

 

Big fish shops, especially one's who are very into marine, have been quite rude/condescending towards me because I'm a teenager who keeps a cheap fish. If I happen to mention I'm buying something for my goldfish, they really treat me like a low-worth customer.
I have enough knowledge to not be ripped off and can probably put the smart-arse assistants in their place. But the way they talk to me when I'm not showing interest in their big bucks stock gets very annoying.

 

Put is all in context ... I would love to see a reform in healthcare - for people mostly, would be great if doctors only got paid if they cured / identified / treated the entire patient and not this annuity income they have (do not get me started on psychiatry, psychology or any of the therapy specialists) going with referrals, specialists and the come back in two weeks routine. Some days I feel exactly the same about the LPS business ... a reform is in order. Actually give me wal$mart - then I will be happy with no service and low low low prices. Hoping they have a huge pet section in the future ...

 

we go to a pet store for fish and fish products, that means that a lps = lfs even if they only have one tank. Tasa is the only forum that talks about lps, that will get confusing on marine forums, which us where eferyone will eventually end up, so i suggest calling it an lfs.

 

Hi all,
Thanks for all the comments giben here. As a pet shop owner I would like to say most are valid. My two pennies worth. I take you back to the Goldfish/Bowl SPACA issue. EDUCATION! Anine, are you aware of the natural conditions under which Bettas live!
Let me tell you how my shop works and I have just this past week employed a new staff member who knows absolutely nothing about fish, birds or pets in total. Had a chat with her and told her she will start off with doing cleaning work of cages, birds and other, and then fish tanks. Why, as this will teach her the basics on which to build a sound knowledge she will be required to have in order to give sound advice to the shop customers. I have told her that when we, us who have been there, are helping customers she is to tag along and listen to what advice we give as this is a way of her learning. I have also told her that when she does help someone and she is not sure then she is to either come and ask me or the young lady who is basically my manager. If I don't know something I am fortunate enough to have 3 very knowledgible people, in the industry, who I can call upon for advise. If someone has a bad experience, told the wrong things, I would expect them to raise it with me as that is the only way I will become aware of it and then I can correct it.
I go back to EDUCATION. That is the only way this industry will get better is when there is a concerted effort, by the entire industry, to not only decide to work together but to stand together as one as we will all benefit. We need a law passed that in order to open a pet store you must be a member of Pet Traders Association and they must in turn regulate and control the industry and also create the education in order to uplift the industry. It will grow in leaps and bounds if this can be done.
Henk, stop slating other suppliers products but rather focus on promoting your products. That is just an example of how rotten this industry is. I have come to realise that customers become very emotionally attached to certain product lines. Don't even try and change their minds as you will most probably chase them away. I don't go about running the product down they use but rather tell them how good the other brands might be and the good points about them.
Renegado, I would love to have you as a customer. Each customer, no matter how musch they spend is treated the same. Remember business is not about the sale you make now but about the sal;e you make to the same customer 10 years from now because they are loyal and keep coming back.
I love young customers as this means I will have great loyal customers in years to come.
I don't mind being abrupt when it comes to people wanting to mix fish together that should not go together, knowing that in a day or two there will be casualties. It is my name in the firing line and I can defend my stance. If I sell, for the sake of the sale, I cannot defend that.

I hope this has added some light to this very important point raised.
I will also say I am not shy to take on my suppliers regarding things I think are not right for the industry. Remember I have only been around for 4 years and maybe that is a good thing as I am not blinded by what I perceive to be old traditional ways of this business. I carry about 100 speicies of Tropical fish at any given time and not 5 or 10 of them either. I want to grow, not only, my business but also the entire industry here in SA.

 

Hi Guys,

I am sorry to have to say this, but I have been correcting the errors that have been introduced to South African aquarists by uninformed or untrained lfs owners or employees for over 40 years now. Those lfs owners or assistants that have responded on this thread are the exception to the rule and I salute them, but in general there is a huge problem in the pet trade in general in SA and very specifically in the local fish trade. Scotty you have raised the issue of training persons that you employ as assistants and this is excellent, but what we actually need is a specific training for such persons. There are courses in Aquaculture at Stellenbosch University and at Rhodes as far as I know, but these courses are more aimed at fish production for food purposes and not for ornamental fishes. Where have you ever seen that a lfs owner advertises for shop assistants with suitable aquaculture qualifications?

In my opinion, and what I will now write is pretty tough and radical, but I actually believe that persons wanting to trade in fishes (and any livestock for that matter), wholesalers, lfs owners and assistants should only be permitted to do so if they possess the necessary qualifications. In Germany (and I know that we are in SA, but there should not be any compromise because we are dealing with living fishes here, not just some or other dead goods) you cannot open a fish shop unless you are qualified and I firmly believe that this is what should be done here in SA as well.

What this lack of qualification of wholesalers, lfs owners and staff also leads to is a considerable increase in prices of fishes. Why, because there are considerable losses made by wholesalers and lfs owners because of a lack of expertise in how to keep and treat fishes and this is then worked into the price of fishes. Just in the last two weeks again I walked into a couple of petshops here in Bellville, Somerset West and Strand and was ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED at what I saw, sick fishes left right and centre and no effort to do anything about the problem and when I indicated that their fishes were sick, I get given this look which was basically saying "Who the hell do you think you are?". And then I can tell you that I have seen many lfs stocking discus and by far the vast majority of these fishes was really sick.

So, no, in general, I will not give the lfs a break, all too often I see lfs owners wanting to make a quick buck and the fishes are suffering.

This is my considered opinion, and you are welcome to have a different opinion, but it is going to take a lot to convince me otherwise about this.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Dirk you would find this amusing!

I recently visited a newly opened shop who took SAPTA (South African Pet Traders Association) up on the offer to assist with the permit application. On request by the shop they were sent the application forms by SAPTA which turned out to be abalone aquaculture permits. I kid you not! So if the body trying to "control" the trade cant even get it right how to be expect the shops to?

 

Hi Henk,

What I wrote above is what I would like to see implimented in SA. However, we know that when it comes to execution of anything in SA then the wheels come off, so what you explain would not surprise me.

However, if the body that the trade has put in place is so pathetic, then they expose themselves to being regulated by an inefficient government, so they had better get their house in order, or they will simply find that government will prescribe to them what they should do. One of the primary reasons why I believe this is happening is also because of the lack of persons that are really qualified, they have very little authority, and they also are unable to agree on matters so they just simply come across as a group of persons that are competing with each other for business, but not as a united voice speaking for the trade.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

I could not agree with you more. I have been a SAPTA member from start. It also disappointing that the numbers have dindle over the short time I have been there. The main reason being the big boys control and yes I do not believe that they have the knowledge to run the organisation the way it should be run. They run it from a purely business point of view. I have attended Leslie Ter Morshuizens shortened course, 4-6 hrs, and Kirsty, my shop manager has done his week long course.
I have just written to one major supplier regarding the fish I received from them Friday. Not at all happy about the quality and condition. Serious;y thinking about no longer supporting them as this is not something new.
If SAPTA, were run correctly, they should then prescribe the correct requirements for a pet shop.
I am looking for a second hand micro scope so we can do correct identification of problems and then recommend the correct medications to use. If you know the where abouts of one I would appreciate it if you could let me know.
I also intend attending Leslie's week long course as any form of training can only be of help.
EDUCATION is what the industry is in dire need of.

 

Hi Scotty,

Ok, I admit that I have overlooked Leslie's courses and I think that these are a good start. They are compact and although I do not know the exact content, I know that Leslie knows aquaculture so I assume what is needed is going to be in the courses he offers.

From what I can make out this "running things from the business point of view" is nothing else than keeping a monopoly for certain members and this just simply has to change, this is old South Africa stuff where things were controlled by Mafias, we need to move on, and if they cannot get their act together, as I have explained before, they will find that they will just simply be told what to do.

Secondhand microscopes are not obtainable as all universities have far too large student numbers and are not selling off "old" microscopes. I would advise you to google for microscopes and perhaps I can assist you directly, but there are new microscopes that are not so expensive at all and that are actually better than "second hand" older generation microscopes.

I support you entirely that EDUCATION is what the industry is in dire need of, I mean, you are talking to me as a university professor here. I have actually given some serious consideration to given a course on discus keeping both for the lfs owner and also for the amateur enthusiast as the information that is available is really not good, there is a lot of information, but it is all confused and interwoven and for the person who wishes to start it is an absolute minefield, you really do not know where to start.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

All this talk of education sounds to me like the mating call for SETA Accreditation linked to some or other NQF and later the CDP, but this probably means that courses need to be registered with SAACTA?

Ah we can dream can we not !!!

Later Ferdie

 

Hi Ferdie,

I am fully aware of all the SAQA accreditation and I am not against it all. If you present a course why not have it accredited from the word go. A course is as good as its evaluation or else it serves no purpose, so this should go that route so that we know that what is taught is not unsubstantiated rubbish and has credibility.

But I must say that you are gooiing those acronyms really nicely, often I get the feeling that the more of these you use the better you sound because other persons don't know what you are talking about at all and make you sound all important (no personal offence meant). Our dear government is just great at using the abbreviations but they continue talking and talking and talking, and I see too little execution.....

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

lol - indeed prof .. actually I was looking for some sort of course that would fit in with what I would think made sense with what you described happens in germany .. best I could get was http://www.nwu.ac.za/cem/accredtationse since I think a pet store has more to do with the environment than just the animals, hence the mating call. Personally I have only had to understand SETA and NQF. CDP is new to the tool belt for a TLA addict.

BTW TLA - Three letter acronym

Later Ferdie

 

Hi Ferdie,

Yes, one of these days we will only be talking in acronyms so thanks for broadening my horizon with this latest one. North West University, oh sorry no, NWU, (formerly PU vir CHO, Potchefstroomse Universiteit vir Chips, Hamburgers en Ontug) have now gone the whole hog I see, they are now more tied up in all the burocracy of the accreditation than the actual course which is why they have a problem in attracting students..... perhaps it also has something to do with accreditation, they should ask themselves.

But the point you make is entirely valid that the pet store has to do with the environment, and this must be regulated in a rational way. By that I mean if we ban all sorts of fishes but we find that plecos are all of a sudden breeding in northern KZN rivers then there is something seriously wrong with the drawing up of the black list or with the persons drawing up the blacklist? Makes you think right?

Kind regards,

Dirk