Help with Discus Fish

Hi Guys,

I need some help with my Discus fish. They have unfortunately picked up a parasite infection from some new arrivals (which I was unable to quarantine). My tank is 1000l and my water parameters are fine. Symptoms include loss of apetite, lethargy, rapid breathing and a few have 'jelly stools.' They most likely have both endo and exoparasites - ? Hexamita and Flukes. I have treated them with 3 doses of parasite clear with water changes between and have not had much success yet. My temp is increased to 32 degrees. I am going to start medicated Metro today. Any other suggestions ?

 

Try a hand full of sea salt per 80Lt of water.
Don’t use meds for a while.
I personally don’t believe in anything else (except for lavamisol)
Hope your fish pull through

 

Hi Mattie,

Thanks for the reply. Just needed more specifics about the salt. I have read that some people use aquarium salt, some use non-iodised kitchen salt and some use normal kitchen salt. Not sure which one is best and have you had +ve outcomes with this treatment before. Also how much is a handful exactly ? Thanks for your help

 

Sea salt, non-iodized is the type i use.
A hand full - heaped table spoon
Salt produces slime which protects the fish and also kills some organisms that in large numbers cause disease.

 

Will give it a try. Thanks

 

STOP!!!I've seen this thread only now.

First off, some definitions. When we speak of "salt", this is a confusing term, because salts are a large heterogeneous group that consists of any ionically bound elements or compounds. The salt that most freshwater aquarists mean to speak of, however, is NaCl (sodium chloride). THIS SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH MARINE SALT, WHICH CONTAINS BUFFERS THAT ARE VERY HARMFUL TO MANY FRESHWATER FISH. Table salt is basically also NaCl, only with iodine added (the myth that iodized salt is harmful fish is largely false... iodine is a natural element that is needed in the diet of all fish, and is actually a supplement in many fish foods... the only thing in table salt of real harm to FW fish are the decaking agents, which are very low in concentration).

DO NOT USE SALT WITH ANY OF THESE FISH, AS SOME HAVE RATHER STRINGENT PH/KH/GH REQUIREMENTS, AND COULD DIE AS A RESULT OF THIS ADDITION
Neon tetras, cardinal tetras, rummy nose tetras, hatchetfish, elephantnoses, and discus.
In a livebearer only tank (such as one with mollies, swordtails, guppies, or platys), I would recommend it.

PM Prof.Dirk or marco for the correct treatment of Discus.

 

you will have to treat with something more agressive than salt, like prazi or metro. Try to take a pic of the fish while it is producing the "jelly stool" so that the prof can make a propper diagnoses and suggest best treatment.

 

Sounds like you need Flagyl/Prazi and a Metro combo. They have inflamed lips by any chance?

 

Hi guys !

I have not added any salt yet - still trying to check on the merits of it. As I have said before, I have tried combination Prazi/Metro with no success. Temp is now up to 34 degrees. It might be a resistant strain - hope not. Going to PM Prof. I am in Durban - not sure if there are any good vets who deal with fish down here. Thanks for the help

 

@neilh - yeah,Florida Vet - saviour of many a fish in Gauteng....

 

@neilh - yeah,Florida Vet - saviour of many a fish in Gauteng....

 

Always boggles my mind that people treat fish when they dont have the 1st clue what parasite they are treating for.... With discus even more so!!! It is due to this practise that parasites over the last few decades have become so resistant,that often the "cure" is almost as bad as the parasite problem....

@vishal - Dont know where you are in SA,but find a vet that specialises in fish to do a skinscrape and identify WHAT parasite you need to treat for... Otherwise,a specialist koi store could be able to do it as well - most LFS's dont know wich end to look into a microscope,nevermind being able to identify the parasite...

Hope you didnt add "salt" - hope you get this sorted mate....

 

+1 on the vet. Can recommend one if you in JHB/West Rand side

 

Hi Vishal,

Much of what has been said here is just inaccurate and creates a circle of confusion.

Firstly, adding salt to your Discus aquarium is NOT bad. You can use aquarium salt (coarse salt) for this purpose at a heeped tablespoon per 100liters. Note however the reason for doing this. Salt reduces stress by alleviating osmotic pressure by way of reverse osmosis. This helps the fish 'cope' better with the situation, and can help heal minor scrapes and scratches. At that solution however, it will have no effect on any parasites.
The jelly poop you are witnessing in the fish is due to a flagellate infection. It is thus not a true parasite, and in Discus they are ever present. Metro is used to treat for this at 14mg per litre mixed in the tank water. Leave it for 3 days, do a 50% water change and repeat. It is sometimes nescessary to repeat this until all symptoms are gone. Note however that this will not rid the fish entirely of these flagellates. It will get rid of most and aid the fish to become strong enough to deal with it. Symptoms of Flagellate infections are brought on by stressors such as poor water conditions, wrong and inadequate diet, wrong tankmates etc.

When referring to parasites many fall in this category. Round worm, gill and body flukes, camallanus etc. These are just as difficult to get rid of as some will always remain in thd tank. The only way would be to treat fish in a 100% succesfull way and introduce them to a sterile tank. This is not possible as no medication will do the job 100%

My QT regime is as follow. Upon arrival new fish are put into a seasoned tank (3ft) with a bare bottom. The first 5 days I do nothing except feed and add Paraguard to the water. After day 5 I start a 3 day Metro treatment as the fish always have flagellate symptoms at this stage.
After the 3 days I give 2 days rest and do a 40min dip in Jungle parasite clear dissolved in sterile water. The fish then go into a new tank and the 3ft cleaned out and refilled. After 2 days I move them again to the 3ft in which 2mg per litre of Dovaworm was dissolved. They stay there for 1 day minimum. (watch levels as there is no filtration in the tank) They are then moved back to the other tank which is a 4ft. I then feed their favourite food which was left to soak up some Dovaworm once daily for 5 days.

After this they normally have better colour and eat very well within a day or two. This has not however completely eradicated the problems, but rather brought them into manageable levels for a healthy fish to deal with.

Azurekoi, though I understand where you come from and totally agree with it on the one hand, we must remember that internal parasites cannot be skin scraped, and sometimes going broad spectrum is the only option for some.

Many may not agree with my method,but since doing it this way, my fish are healthy, growing rapidly and hardly ever have problems. This is what Prof. Dirk always refer to as "the problem with Discus". They, and their requirements are just not straight forward and simple to understand.
Hope this has helped

Rgds
Marco

 

Great post Marco. I think azurekoi meant a gill scrape, not going to pick up much from a skin scrape

 

Thanks Marco !

Appreciate the help.
Just to confirm the way forward:
- Continue the metro treatment until all symptoms resolve
- Keep the high temps
- Add salt
- Water changes

Regards,
Vishal

 

My point is just to first identify what he problem/parasite is - whether by gill/body scrape or by microscopical analysis of a stool sample...

There are many other parasites that are not "discuss related" and you can be metro-ing and prazi-ing till the cows come home,simple ornamental fish parasites crosscontaminated at the wholesaler like Costia,Chilodinella,etc will just laugh it off and continue their attack...

Marco is spot on with his quarentine program - my aim is just to make you think "out of the box" on parasite issues - its not always the usual suspects....

 

@Marco Thanx for helpiung out here.We were going in circles.
@vishal Always better to wait for the opinion of someone that keeps and breed a certain species.

 

Hi Azurekoi,Vishal

Shawn, I was really not trying to be rude to your comment, apologies if it read that way. Please, please dont take it up that way.
The problem I have with any scrapes is the stress this puts on fish. Thats apart from the fact that most are just not qualified to do this. I have had a discus so stressed and infected by something, something to this day I have no knowledge of as he was the only one in the tank that was unhappy, and when I finally decided to catch him and scrape and do serious treatment, he actually died the moment I took him out of the water. Very few people will have the knowledge (me included) to look through a microscope and find whats wrong. Fair enough we can buy books like Untergassers that show examples of all things under a microscope, but I find this just leads to becoming a Neurotic. . .

@vishal

I would continue the Metro treatment at 14mg per liter. NO less as this will make that flagellate resistant to medication. You want to treat strong and effectively. I would not add salt at this stage. If you already have, dont worry about it though. Temp is a little too high I would say. 31'C should be fine. I'm just worried about that high temperature and oxyegen levels. Once done twice (3days, 50% water change, repeat) they should be fine. Then wait two to three days and start the Parasite clear treatment dip. Follow this again three days later with Levamisole treatment, in a seperate tank as IT WILL KILL YOUR BIOLOGICAL FILTRATION.

I'm going to open a can of worms and sort of contradict myself here. . . Discus are just fish! They should be treated as such and one must remember that when they suffer from something, there normally is a good solution if treated properly.
One should avoid becoming neurotic and over sensitive to them, as pretty soon you will land in a place where any "strange" behaviour will make you believe there is something wrong.
For instance - I recieved 5 Blue Diamonds from Altum last week. Ever since I have put them in their tank, they have behaved as if they have been there for years. They eat from my hand, they are always swimming up and about the front glass, and they show absolutely NO sign of having travelled from Cape town and being stressed. Even when doing water changes they swim to the tube and pick on it. I find this strange as most Discus will be scared and shy for at least a few days and most definetly not peck at the syphon tube two days after introduction. But they are just like that!
Altum's opinion is that he doesnt sell "sissy" Discus. . . (haha)
I for one have never been able to keep neon's alive for more that a few weeks, but my Discus are fine! Which is then more difficult to keep.
I think it is in part related to WHY we keep them, and an understanding of the species we keep. This is why so often I have tried encouraging people to be "experts" at whatever they keep, instead of jumping from species to species when things go wrong. I have met people who have kept Neons alive for almost 4 years! Why can I not do it I ask? Simple, I'm not interested enough.
Thats just my "useless" off-topic opinion though

Regards

Marco
(PS @Slojo - How are the Apisto's doing?)

 

No offense taken at all @Marco! You and I very much sit around the same fire with regards on how we feel about fishkeeping...

Fully agree with you that scraping should NEVER be done by someone that is not experienced with this.... Also,when scraping tropical fish - cut a piece of margarine tub lid to make a scraper as opposed to using the glass plate from the scope - much less damaging...