Help plz!!

Discussion in 'Beginner Discussions' started by IcemanX, Feb 9, 2010.

  1. IcemanX

    IcemanX

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    Wonder if you guys can assist. My setup seems to be fairly stable, had 41 fish all looking healthy and strong. Then last night one of the "Painted" Glass Fish died, and went cloudy, remove it immediately, kinda expected this after discussing the whole Painted fish issue. However, this morning one of my Rainbow Sharks was belly up, and had a weird white spot on his head, which wasn't there last night??!!?? Also remove him immediately. The rest of the guys all look normal, no disease, white spots, foam. I'm worried, but surely a lot more would be sick, not just one at time time popping off. Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated:wondering:
     
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  3. Donny

    Donny

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    What size tank do you have what filtration and whats the waters perimeters
     
  4. OP
    IcemanX

    IcemanX

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    Hi Donny, I have a 40L deep corner tank, external canister filter (rated up to 100L), and two air stones running @ 60%, must be honest I haven't managed to find a decent test kit yet, my LFS is only getting stock on Thurs, the cheap one I had was rubbish, but as I say I initially intro'ed 5 Red-line Torpedo Barbs, 1 Pleco, 2 Sunset Platys, 2 Dwarf Gouramis and 2 Bala Sharks (Lost the Pleco to stress from the LFS catching experience and 1 Sunset Platy to bullying from the new fish) two weeks ago. The rest are still going strong, so are most of the new guys, except for the 2 that died now, I put in the following stock on Saturday (5 Tiger Barbs, 5 Black Skirt Tetras, 2 Rainbow Sharks, 1 Spiny Eel, 2 Clown Loaches, 5 Jack Dempseys, 3 Ramirez Cichilids, 2 Plecos, 5 Painted Glass Fish) with Bacteria enhancer and Nitrivec, then 1 teasponn of Nitrivec again for two more days. Didn't feed for two days, fed last night and all fish ate fine?!?
     
  5. stormbringer101

    stormbringer101 ARO

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    it sounds to me you are over stocked for the size of your tank ,how long has the tank been runing.... and you are adding a lot of fish verry quickly.
    id take the balas and eel back or put them in in a another tank they will get way to big for that tank.get a test kit asap but in the mean time do plenty of water changes
     
  6. OP
    IcemanX

    IcemanX

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    I cycled the tank for two weeks with no stock, then added some guppies from a mate and cycled for another week. Gave the guppies back, then bought the first 12, lost the Pleco after 2 days, but fairly certain that was stress, coz the girl catching the fish didnt have a clue!! Then waited two weeks with these guys, then added the large batch, which as I say, all look healthy and strong. I will see if I can take the sharks and eel back, when I get the test kit. I'm doing 25% water changes every day at the moment, adding bacteria enhancer and Nitrivec. I hear what you're saying about the over-stock, and I voiced my concerns to the LFS, who seem very knowledgable, and they say because I have 3 schools of really small fish, the rest should be fine, I know they're also probably trying to make a buck off a newbie, so ja, thats why I'm here :)
     
  7. Franna

    Franna

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    I'm no expert but 41 fish in a 40l does sound like a few too many. Thats maybe the reason
     
  8. OP
    IcemanX

    IcemanX

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    At first I thought it was a lot too, but everything I've read says for average size fish you should allow 1L of space, is this correct? Must be honest, it was international sites, but they say about 4 fish per gallon should be ok?!? I will pop a couple back to my LFS and see if it makes a difference, coz it's really weird that none of the guys look sick, or anything and just the two popped off, honestly both were looking a bit sluggish previously.
     
  9. stormbringer101

    stormbringer101 ARO

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    the sooner you get a test kit the better , i have seen with the rainbow and glass fish they are very sesitive for the first week.rainbow sharks are also very teratorial and will often chase each around until the weaker one dies ? keepup the water changes and see if any of the others develop symptoms of ich
     
  10. OP
    IcemanX

    IcemanX

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    Now that makes sense, the one Rainbow was chasing the one that died (he was often hiding behind the filter pipes or heater!!! I will get that kit ASAP, and keep an eye on the rest of the guys, what would ich look like? White spots?
     
  11. stormbringer101

    stormbringer101 ARO

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    ich = lots of white pimple like spots ,fish strugle to breathe at water surface all the time ,normaly comes from new fish like the glass, just check them before you buy i always hold the bag up to the light when i buy and check new fish some lfs have a habit of dim lights in the tanks .
     
  12. Sean J

    Sean J

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    No... It is severely overstocked!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, come on!! 41 fish in a 40L tank is just plain mental. ESPECIALLY with 2x plecos! Those things are crap factories!! They produce more waste than most of the fish in that tank COMBINED!!! Come on man, a little common sense should prevail here... That tank is WAY overstocked. And 1 litre of water PER CENTIMETER OF FISH! Not per centimeter of the juvenile fish you have in your tank, it is per CM of the size they grow as ADULTS!! A rainbow shark gets to about 10 CM. That's 10L of water for 1 fish.

    By your logic, you could put an oscar in there because it doesn't grow bigger than 30cm, because there is 40L of water in the tank. This is ridiculous... I'd expect, at least half of the fish in your tank to be gone in the next week or 2 because of death. Those Ramirezis will probably be next. They are very sensitive fish and require specific water parameters to survive and thrive, and you don't even have a test kit?!?! What the hell are you thinking?

    Sweet Mary!!!!!!!!!!! The Jack Dempseys will kill everything in that tank. They are EXTREMELY aggressive fish in that type of community and should only be kept with other tough cichlids, this is not to say you should put other tough cichlids in that tank, you should get rid of the Jack Dempseys. For Gods sake, what the hell were you thinking?

    I am so sick and tired of this kind of crap happening. Please, please, please, tell us which LFS sold all these fish to you? The advice they have given you is utter Bull $%&#!!!!! Take all the cichlids and the plecos back to the store or give the fish to some of the forum members who know how to actually keep fish.

    I know this seems a little like a kak out session, well it is really, but it is super imortant to ask for advice BEFORE buying the fish to put in the tank, so we can give you stock advice and prevent this type of thing from happening. The fact is, the LFS people WILL try and sell you all these things. They know what will happen. They fish will die and you will go back to replace the dead stock over and over again, until you tire of killing fish and give up the hobby completely. They don't understand that if you supply the correct information from the beginning, you create a life long customer who is happy and his tank is happy... It SERIOUSLY pisses me off!!

    Everyone who read this thread was thinking what I just said, but never typed it out. Please, take this reply seriously. I am not trying to embarrass you. I am trying to help you.
     
  13. komodo

    komodo

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    Ja ne, thats LFS for you!!!! I was once chased out of one cuase i told the sales man he is mad after i saw him selling about 20 Gouramis and 2 plecos a New 2ft tank and all the accesories at the same time, not to talk about the advice he gave the client for setting up his 1st tank....Newer the less he closed down 3months later.
     
  14. Donny

    Donny

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    Slagter is a 100% correct over stocked and bad mixture of fish.
     
  15. OP
    IcemanX

    IcemanX

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    @ Slagter > Thanx for the VERY honest reply. With all due respect, that is why I am here, asking questions, I understand you are trying to help, but also remember hindsight is always very clear, and everyone has to start somewhere, without mistakes no-one would ever learn anything. Admittedly I did botch the stock vs space calcs, and that is why my common sense figured (@ 1L/fish) around 40 fish would be fine, especially since 15 of those fish are barely 1cm themselves. As I mentioned I did have a test kit, just discovered it was rubbish, want to get a decent one this week. As this is my first tank, my logic is entirely based on the advice of others, so (perhaps mistakenly) I trusted the LFS, and will have words with them before I slack them off here, maybe the sales person just wasn't clued enough, or too greedy. I want to take out the Jack's anyway, as they are WAY too frisky, and although they haven't touched any of the others, they do seem to get the rest agitated with their racing around the top of the tank. If you were stocking this type of tank for the first time, and wanted a nice balance of fish (since it is fairly deep), with good character and with nice colour variations what would you suggest.
     
  16. Sean J

    Sean J

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    I am glad you are taking the advice seriously, and you are not being put off the hobby. It really is a wonderful hobby.

    Firstly, because the tank is deeper than it is wide, your stock list will be less as well. There isn't enough surface area for the fish. But this aside, I would recommend the following:

    Bottom dwellers: Corydoras Catfish. They make great cleanup crew and don't get very big at all.

    Middle layer fish: The Rams. They make super community tank fish. Also the smaller tetras work well for some variation. They also use up all the space in a tank and they school beautifully.

    Top: Once again, tetras.

    As for algae eaters, try find some Ottos. They are Otocinclus catfish. They are small and you could put 3 to 4 in your tank. They are quite sensitive, but if their water conditions are stable, they are happy!! They are brilliant algae cleaners!

    That should be perfect for a small tank.
     
  17. OP
    IcemanX

    IcemanX

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    I'm not put off at all, I really want to make it work. I was advised against tetras by various sources, saying they severly limit the other species you can keep. I will see what I can do, spk to the LFS and see what he will take back and exchange, they are very reasonable, and took back all my "bullys". Thanx for the advice on the restock (which would be the perfect situation), now looking on the other side of the coin (as I like to cover all my bases :) ), if I had to make a go out of what I already have, and just return the ones I can't keep, then what combo(s) would you suggest?
     
  18. Sean J

    Sean J

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    Rams and tetras. Get rid of plecos, sharks, eels, JD's etc. The gouramis might work, but they may be bullies, depending on the species.

    Small tetras make perfect tank mates. Just not neons. They carry diseases.
     
  19. OP
    IcemanX

    IcemanX

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    Tnx for the help, I will definately see what I can do, and sort out the community. Once I get my test kit, what would you recommend as the ideal parameters and temp? Since what I read about stocking was wrong, maybe I got my other figures incorrect too :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
  20. Zoom

    Zoom Retired Moderator

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    I'm with Slagter on this one!

    SERIOUSLY overstocked... by about 80%

    That LFS should actually not see you again IcemanX. I'm serious... LFS will sell you fish that are incompatible with each other, then tell you when they die it's because you not keeping them properly, so you buy another incompatible fish.

    My suggestion... get rid of the fish... and start with the more peaceful fish (As Slagter mentioned names of fish earlier).

    Another thing you need to keep in mind... oxygen does NOT enter water through the airstones. This air simply bubbles up and disappears above. Oxygen can only enter water through the SURFACE OF THE WATER BREAKING. Airstones can assist with this a bit in that the bubbles they create moves the suface of the water... but the bubbles that are coming out the water are really only giving you a good show.

    Because the tank is so deep, the surface area is small, and if you do not have a lot of surface tension breaking at the top, very little oxygen is entering the water. Check that the current fish aren't gasping for breath as it is? I suspect they are all struggling for oxygen, and the stress is causing secondary infections.
     
  21. OP
    IcemanX

    IcemanX

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    Hi Zoom, I got the physics of the airstones down, I know they're more for show :) The surface tension is being broken by both the airstones and the filter return spray bar, so hopefully that is all helping. I was firstly concerned about the oxygen issue, and I know it's a hellava lot of fish to watch constantly, but none of them are gasping, or moving gills vigorously, or making frequent surface excursions. But anyway I am gonna take a lot of the guys back to the LFS, since I lashed out a good couple of bucks for these guys, and have a good chat with the owner, if they are honest enough, then I will get the right stock mix from them, otherwise move along.
     

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