Help needed! Black discus!

Dear Guys (Prof Dirk and the other discus gurus),

Could you please help me with the following discus problem?

I would appreciate your assistance.

Kind regards,
Gavin

Background:
I set the tank up, fully planted, 9 weeks ago. After 5 weeks I introduced 8 rummy nose tetras and 6 corydoras (4 peppered cats and 2 bandit; the two bandit cory's died after two weeks, and were replaced by two leapard corys). After a further two weeks I introduced 6 young discus and 4 rams. The intention is to keep only 4 discus in the tank (haven't yet decided what/who will get the two of the six which I decide to let go) and to grow these young ones close to adulthood.
Where do you stay?:
Sea Point
How long have you been keeping tropical fishes / discus?:
Approximately 14 years / approximately 5 years
Description of the sick fish (age, size, breathing speed):
Not sure of the age (purchased them from lfs), approx 5 to 7 cm (from mouth to end of caudal fin), normal
Describe the problem that the fish is having: (behaviour, breathing, excretion (droppings), food intake, colour):
My main concern is the dark colouration of the fish (will attach photos below). The fish is feeding well, is not shy or reclusive (in fact he/she is a bit of a bully to the other fish and is probably the most aggresive feeder), droppings are generally a little stringy at first and then solid.
Has the problem occurred before?: No
Have you treated the problem and how?: No
Have you had any other problems in the past? When I introduced the rummy nose I noticed that there was a mild ich outbreak, which has now cleared up. The rams were introduced with the discus and they also showed signs of a mild ich infection (a few spots which cleared up within a few days).
When and where did you buy these fishes from and what size were they when you bought them?:
I bought them two weeks ago. They have grown, I would guess, approximately 1cm (perhaps a little more) in the two weeks I have had them
What type of discus are these? Wild or hybrid and which type?:
I am not sure. An ID would also be much appreciated (guessing 3 of the 6 are pigeon bloods and the other three are browns)
Your aquarium (Size; what do you have in the aquarium such as logs, stones; plants; gravel; fertilizer use; CO2? etc.):
120cm x 60 cm (depth) x 50cm, the substrate is fine pool filter sand which caps a layer of Prof Dirk's PFP mixed with tropica substrate, i have two mopani roots and one piece of spider wood and a few pieces of dragon rock, i have a variety of echinodorus (ID would also be appreciated), java ferns, crypts, anubias, hair grass and liliaeopsis.
I use no CO2. But dose the following on a weekly basis (the dosage is done as follows: half on sat and half on tues): 2 teaspoons Equilibrium, 2 teaspoons plaster of paris, 2 teaspoons epsom salts, 60 ml Flourish Nitrogen, 30ml Flourish trace
Your filtration (Type and size of filter, what is in your filter, liters per hour)
I have a sump based on a design supplied by Prof Dirk on the forum, it cycles approx 250l/hour and consists of coarse gravel and filter wool (I will post a pic)
Aquarium hygiene:
I clean the tank twice a week. On Sat and Tues I rinse the filter wool in the sump and lightly siphon off excess detritus from the gravel in the tank. I do an approx 40% water change on Sat and 20% on Tues ie Tues is a quicker clean (just to get excess waste out)
How many fishes do you have in your tank (discus, their size and other fishes):
6 discus all between 5 and 7cm, 4 rams between 2 and 3cm, 8 rummy nose tetras between 1.5 to 2.5cm and 6 cory's approx 2cm each
When did you last buy any new fishes and from where were they bought?:
Bought discus and rams from lfs
Which food are you feeding and how often do you feed?
3 times a day as much as the will completely eat within 5 mins. They are being fed tetra flakes, tetra bits, serra spirulina pellots, frozen brine shrimp and frozen bloodworms. I feed flakes and other dried food in the morning. In the afternoon they get BW and in the evening a combination (always starting with the dried foods to ensure there is some balance)
Water changes?
The temperature of the water is approximately the same as in the tank ie 30 Celsius (sometimes a little lower, not lower than 28), i use tapwater.
Do you prepare your water for water changes? Reverse osmosis, peat filtration, do you add peat extract?: No
Water description (smell and colour): Water is clear and smells "healthy" (ie no stink of cyano or anything like that)
Water:
Temperature of the water: 30 Celsius
General hardness (GH): 6 (use Serra test kit)
Carobonate hardness (KH): 3 (use Tetra test strip)
Nitrite (No2-): 0 (Tetra test strip)
Nitrate (No3-): 10 ppm (Tetra test strip)
pH-value and how did you measure your pH: 6.8 (Serra test kit)

 

Some more pics of the tank and other fish (ID would be great! Together with a best guess of there current age?)

 

The white mark on the first photo is the flash of the camera reflecting off something on the glass, it is not on the fish. Here are some more pics ...

 

Last few pics ...

 

An ID on the fish (as mentioned) would be great

The only other info I can think of which may be relevant is:

1. I have some "thread" algae which grows on the front glass and on the spider wood and below the roots of the java ferns (it looks a little like moss so not too unhappy about it);
2. Had a little cyano (1 to 2 cm on the hair grass which I had trimmed) after week 5 or 6 (a little after the first fish were introduced) which I siphoned off, increased the Flourish Nitrogen dosage and it hasn't returned (I hope ever!).

 

Just giving the thread a bump

 

Hi Gavin,

I originally skipped over this thread when going through the forum because I do not qualify myself as a Discus expert by any means, and I would request @Dirk and @Marco to come give their input here. However I have seen some fundamental issues with your set up that I will be able to comment on, and these may actually be the cause of your concern.


Firstly in the description you provide, it appears to me that this was a new tank set up, and the discus were introduced fairly soon after setting up. I know some people will advise that a tank needs to be well cycled before venturing into Discus. My biggest cause for concern here is that before you introduced the discus, you know you had an Ich problem, as well as 2 unknown deaths. This should have immediately cautioned you from the early introduction of the Discus.

Based on the specs of your tank, you have a tank of approximately 300-360 liters of water... although possibly more due to the sump. I'm not convinced you have suitable filter material in your sump. You then only have a 250l/hour pump, which is 5-10 times smaller than what is actually required for any set up, let alone a Discus set up. SO my interpretation here would be that your filtration material is completely inadequate, and the volume you are filtering per house is grossly under-rated. I think the only reason why your water appears to be clean is because of the constant water changes you are doing.

I'm not going to comment on the food you feed, as Dirk has given an extremely in depth article on feeding Discus. The only comment I will venture out to say here is that I believe your discus are under-nourished.

Dirk and Marco are going to tell you that a planted tank and discus should be done with extreme caution, and when I investigate the option, I decided that I have to agree with them. Discus are very sensitive to chemical additions, and the water requirements for plants and the water requirements for discus are two different requirements. I will grant that some people have got planted discus tanks, but some give and take has been given. My biggest concern is the products you are dosing your tanks with. Plaster of Paris and Epsom Salts are NOT intended for aquaria use. I know some forums claim that it's an effective cheap method to dosing your tanks requirements... but in my honest opinion, they are talking rubbish, and I have challenged them numerous times to show me the scientific evidence of their claims. I see you are using all the other Seachem products, why not use Seachem exclusively on everything? Alternately, excuse my ignorance here, but I seem to recall Sea Point being in CT? You could alternately contact Dirk directly, take a drive out to him in Stellenbosch and purchase his range of DSD fertilizers. I've been through all the products, and DSD has proven time and time again in my tanks!

You claim that you are not aging our tap water, or treating it before adding, (naughty naughty), however the water is always within 2degrees of the actual tank temperature. My deductions are therefore that you are substituting your tap water with heated geyser water. If so, please stop. Geyser water is not suitable for aquaria either. The hot water reacts with the copper lining of the pipes and geyser tank, and we don't want copper in our tanks. (Cold water doesn't react with the copper).

I trust this can help you start identifying initial issues... now we can let the experts comment.

 

Hi @Gavin
Are you sure thats right? Only 250lt/hr?

 

Hi Guys,Thanks for the helpful comments! To answer the questions:Yes, Sea Point is in CT I have contacted Prof Dirk by PM for both food and DSD but unfortunately he is very busy at the moment. I am sure that as soon as he gets a chance he will let me know and I would be super happy to get both the food and DSD from him (and, if possible, it would be great to meet the legend himself ).The plaster of paris and epsom salts is to provide some calcium and magnesium and the amounts are based on the "fert calculator" provided on the apsa forum. I would be happy to dose with Seachem but don't know which product and what amounts to get the right Ca and Mg.The pump is 1400/l per hour but when I measured the amount of water coming down the inflow into the sump it was approximately a litre of water in about 15 seconds (maybe slightly less time).A comment of my own: the suggestions thus far, albeit it helpful, I think would result in all the fish being unhappy? But, at the moment (and to be fair it has only been about two weeks), all the other fish seem happy other than the one.Thanks again!

 

PS Any chance on ID'ing the other fish

 

would a product like Prime not sort that out?

 

Hi Gavin

Well zoom already got around to most of your problems!

First,I would not recommend less that 6 discus,as they do well in a group of 6 or more,but the size of your tank and sump only allows you to have around 8 discus!

Small discus needs good food with enough vitamins and need to be fed at least 6 times a day until they are fully grown,so now the problem is this...
deside what you want,a planted tank or a discus tank,but with juvenile discus is best to use a bare bottom tank,you can feed a lot and it is easy to clean,in a year or what when they are fully grown,then put them in a planted tank,then you will only have to feed them 3 times a day,but if you feed them less now,they will end up being stunted and will never be healthy good looking fish!

With discus going dark,most of the time there is something wrong with your water,and with everything you add to your water I can just think it could be something like that.
In your answering sheet on top you said you dont prepair your water.is that right?do you add water straight from your tap,as this is a big no no!!
you will need to prep your water at least 2 days before water changes!

Looking at your photos,some of that fish already got the dented discus look,and you will have to stock up on some food!beefheart,bloodworm,and food with vitamins and garlic and FEED FEED FEED!

Read Dirks thread on discus feeding!!!

Is there any stringy white fesus coming out after feeding??

Hope @Altum,@Marco or @Dirk will comment as well as I am no fundy either,just a keen bare bottom discus keeper!

 

Thanks, again Sheez, may need to seek counselling after all this feedback. Here I was, living in blissful ignorance and quite proud of the set up

Have managed to find someone who can get me SV2000, more BW and white mosquito larvae. So will definitely be feeding them that as soon as I get it.

Will definitely be prepping water before it goes in the tank in future

 

I concur with @Zoom and @jabula 7749. If you adding tap water at the temp of 28 or 30, you must be adding hot water to it and NO PRIME - big no no!! You may find that your other discus will soon go dark too. I too am a bare bottomed discus keeper, it's the only way to go when growing out juveniles. I too had a bad experience with putting discus in a planted tank in October last year, fortunately this forum and @Altum helped and I had no losses. Now my planted tank has been cycling for 2 and half months and I still won't put my discus in there yet. Waiting at least 2 to 3 more months when they are bigger. I have been growing out my juveniles since begining of November in a bare bottomed tank.

 

Managed to miss your question: No, there isn't any white stringy faeces after feedings.

Quick question, how are you able to spot the stunted growth in the discus? Since I've had the fish for (not quite) two weeks, presumably this is from poor nutrition at the lfs.

 

easiest way to see a stunted fish is when its eyes are to big for the size of its body.bad nutrition and lack of water change maker the eyes grow but the body does not keep up.they say if you draw a vertical line threw a discus eye you are supose to fit 6 to 7 of the discus eyes on that line.if you only fit 3 or 4 discus could be stunted,or its poor form discus thats not nice and round!

I also had gravel and wood in my discus tank when started,but luckily ive seen the light!

 

Thanks! Any chance on an ID of the "bluish" discus (the second pic)? What would you guestimate their age to be?

 

Hi Gavin,

I think you have been bombarded with good information. You mentioned that you thought those fishes were brown discus. Now the last proper brown discus was last seen in a fish tank about 30 years ago (ok, I am exaggerating a bit, but no discus are browns any longer really). These are straight forward turquoise or solid turquoise discus, nothing fancy, typical lfs discus. The age of that fish is older than what you think, it has been underfed and is a little stunted if you ask me.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Thanks Prof