Fish "TB" symptoms and progression?

Hi all? Does anyone know what the progression rate for fish TB is? I suspect my old female guppy (30l female guppy only tank, slightly crowded but pristine conditions otherwise) might have it. She's had a hunched spine for months, but yesterday I noticed loss of scales on her back accompanied by a smooth white lesion (not the fluffy type ich normally presents with). I have been treating against ich with Protozin since speaking to Onderstepoort yesterday, but this morning she looks positively emaciated in comparison with both her pregnant and non-pregnant tank mates. Am I being histerical or is this true reason for concern? Can "TB" progress so slowly?

 

Hi Ansu

I do not know a lot about Fish TB but do no its contagious to humans and very dangerous should you get it.
Make sure never to put you hand in the water if you have scrapes or broken skin somewhere.

Gerhard

 

Thanks Vis! This is one major mess-up. I noticed it while doing my routine maintainance on that tank so my kitten scratch filled hands have already been in. Will keep an eye out for symptoms in myself and the fish. Phoned OP again and will take the fish in on Monday. Apparently if it is TB they will have to destroy everything in the tank. They also said the symptoms coincide and progression is normally quite slow as has been in this case and that it normally only occurs in old fish (suppose 1 and a half years is old for a guppy). Insert sigh of hopeless frustration here... Holding thumbs that I am wrong and just panicking for nothing.

 

Good Luck with the fish. I hope it is not TB. Let us know what happens.

 

Hi Guys, I have been doing some reading on the net. While setting up a 3ft for my aunt I noticed 2 danios in the tank with bent spines. I dont know if it
is TB or what but im really freaking out here. The 4ft they had it in is now half filled in my lounge.

Please I need some advice cause Im freaking out and dont know what to do. I have been working with the tanks for the past
couple days and am highly paranoid

the reason I was worried is because of the poor water quality due to overfeeding

 

Got your pm ansu, Thanks

 

Please Guys relax,

Bent spines are common in guppies and in Danios, so forget about this worst case TB scenario. Older fishes such as your old guppy female can also go down to some lesions caused by internal bacteria if they are weakened and all the fish around them will not be influenced. Also Protozin is good for treatment of Ich, but it is known to influence fishes such as tiger loaches and others, although not guppies, but again if you medicate and you have weakened fish, you can hasten the process.

So, when you see spinal defects in guppies and danios, don't suspect TB first and when you see lesions first expect internal bacterial infections. If this continues for a long time and the one fish dies and then after a few weeks another fish shows the same symptom, then you may have to start getting concerned. Fishes such as rainbows are quite prone to the problem and then develop lesions on their bodies, large areas on which the scales fall off.

TB is caused by mycobacteria and if you have been immunized against TB, then this does give you protection, so don't panic mechanic. TB immunizations cause the round ring of spots and dots on your upper arm or bum and you would have been immunized with this when you were one day old, so check, you arm or your bum, or ask your mommy! (I have lectured immunology for thirty years now so believe me I know what I am talking about, you will only find horror stories on the internet and the internet is not reviewed by scientists and there is a lot of nonsense out there as well.)

Have a beer and relax!

Enjoy the weekend,

Dirk

 

Thanks prof, I have been stressing about it. The only fish that had bent spines were danios. I Have seen one danio(no bent spine) with
what look like small holes struggling but was normal a few days before. Thing is that I am not able to monitor that tank daily so its hard to
conclude anything. The other swords, guppies, platys even fry, all seem well. The reason for my panic was no water changes were carried out
and some plants detiorated at the bottom, is that mycobacteria?
I asked, I did get that vaccine when I was small(will double check).

Horror stories? yoh I read a few on the net that got me panicking. And I am paranoid which makes it worse.
Not sure what I should do next with these two setups. Any advice?

I dont intend on keeping fish in the long term after this scare

Prof, your inbox is full and I cant send a PM

 

Hi Speedz,

Pour yourself a whisky and relax bru, you are over reacting completely.

Plants are not affected by mycobacteria at all, and all of the other fishes are fine so there is absolutely no reason to think that this is mycobacteria. I am also sure that you were vaccinated so relax boet.

Fish are so relaxing that the very last thing that you want to stop doing is keeping fishes, this scare is completely unnecessary, believe me.

As I said, don't panic mechanic.

Kind regards,

Dirk

PS, I have freed up some space in my PM if you want to send me a message, but relax boet!

 

Hi! Sorry I am only updating now. In my PM I explained to Speedz that R500 later it turned out to be 'an extended bacterial infection' and in further concurence with what Prof said that TB is not as horifying as the web makes it out to be and that most of us should be immune to it. Only in cases of severe immune compromise (HIV/AIDS, severely mismanaged diabetes) is there a big risk of contracting it.

However, several weeks later, some of the younger females in the guppy female only tank started bloating and passing away. I lost about 7 or 8 and now everything seems fine again.

The ammonia and nitrite is zero, pH 7. OP once again hinted at 'extended bacterial infections' but I honestly won't pay R500 for every dead guppy in that tank to determine causes. I also suspect that it may rather be bad breeding as I have read that some guppy females tend to have a higher predisposed risk for 'dropsy' than others and quite a few have survived all this without any symptoms of infection at all. Any ideas?

 

Hi Ansu,

I would not think that this is fish tb once again and there are many other things that can cause the symptoms that you have explained.

I do not know what your fish load is and I also do not know what your filtration capacity is, but if you describe those symptoms then I would say check firstly that you do not keep too many fishes per tank. Then I would check your biological filtration capacity and also specifically check that your filter is not blocked due to lack of cleaning. I would also suggest regular water changes of up to 50%. Actually the more water changes you do the more healthy your fishes will be. Nutrition can also play an important role and if you feed only very high nutritive value granulates or flakes and no roughage then you can also expect these problems, perhaps you can explain what you are doing with regard to these things.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Hi Prof!

Thank you for all the great advice! The tank is 30l, currently has about ten guppy females (+/- 20 with the ones who have passed), planted, internal filter with 500l/hour max capacity. I do 50% w/c every six days. When I found the first dead one I stopped feeding and did 50% water changes for three consecutive days even though ammonia and nitrites tested 0. There were two more deaths in that period, but two days after nothing and then again from there on average one a day. Then I started taking really close observations on what is going on in that specific tank: the affected female/s would hang around at the surface, show signs of internal bleeding, then bloat and consequently develope 'dropsy' and die within 24 hours.

About a week ago I changed the food, suspecting it could be the cause of the internal bleeding and so far have had no deaths since. I am very glad you mentioned this as a possible cause because I was starting to suspect all kinds of horrors again after some web research. Hope that it is all it was (terrible though that lesson was)!

Thanks so much!

Regards, A