Discus Issue

Hi All

My discus have been doing well for a year now, but this morning I noticed a white growth/protrusion on one of them. It is not ich as it extents out about 3mm and resembles a piece of thread. I have removed it manually but I see a smaller outcrop allready appearing in the vicinity (This is near the dorsal fin) I did a tank cleanup on Sat, and first thought this was a piece of debris stuck to the fish as the suspended solids where quite high for a while after vacuuming.

Also earlier this week I put one of my cardinals from the same tank into quarantine. It's body just behind the gills started swelling up. Not abdominal. I suspect it is pH related as the pH has been lower than usual at 5 which I have re-adjusted to 6.5.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

Not a pro but it sounds like it is some sort of worm that is attaching itself to your discus
the pro's will correct me if I am wrong but your best bet is to treat the tank for parasites.
or check this site and see if you can fine the problem there.
http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/index.php?Step=2&GalleryId=2

Hope you come right with out any losses.
Good Luck

 

Kewl Link!! (i've bookmarked it)

Thanks, got some idea of what it may be but need to take a look at my fish again this evening to make sure...

 

Cool I hope it is nothing serious, keep us up to date please

 

Gareth and Scaly,

The quickest thing that you can do to kill your discus is to not use medications carefully and without a proper diagnosis. Jumping to conclusions about parasitic worms is over hasty and treatment with most meds that you buy across the counter will do more harm to discus than good. So, be warned!

Although the website that you have given us the link to, looks very nice, you need a specific diagnosis for discus as the general disease pattern does not apply to discus. I have a number of German books on discus and their diseases and these are better for making a diagnosis.

I would like to ask you to post a pic so that I can look at it. I can think of a number of reasons for what you describe but want to see a decent pic before I recommend anything.

BTW, it would be good if you also told us something about the aquarium: volume, temp, filtration, etc. The drop in the pH to 5 had nothing to do with the cardinal problems, they come from water that has a pH of 4 for the greater part of the year!

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

I have a stupid question here but I would like your opinion on it please.
when you say what you did in the above Quote does that go for all meds used in a discus setup, why I ask is because if you have to go to a LFS with lets say this problem they tell you to dose the tank with stuff like Parasite clear or I see the one LFS here like to tell every one that heal all is the best way to go and in my opinion heal all is a load of crap because it has never solved a problem that I have had in my tanks. so basicly does it do more harm to use these type of meds in the tank for any fish?

 

Gareth I agree with you Heal-All is not all that it is made out to be

 

I've used it in a Quarantine tank with a LOT of success! In a community tank no! I think it comes down to the fact that I am possibly overdosing in the QT tank... and in the main tank, because it's so big, it needs huge amounts of Heal all, and I can't stand seeing money being pi$$ed away like that.

 

Fish health and treating sick fish is a part of veterinary science and for a shop owner to say to anyone that they should use one medication is the biggest lot of nonsense!

A shopowner may have experience, and I do not say that experience is to be ignored, but in general you should actually have some scientific training to be able to treat fishes that are sick. Do you go to Pick and Pay where you buy your dog food to ask the saleman what is wrong with your sick dog? You very definitely go to your vet! Well, Joburg has a good vet who actually keeps fishes, Dr Paul Elshove, so why not consult him if you have problems and not just the pet shop owner?

On the discus issue, I have a two volume book written by a German veterinary surgeon on discus diseases. They are complicated to treat, need specialized medication and then the fishes are inherently susceptible to certain types of diseases, so quick fixes and general medications for discus are a total fallacy. I also want to add that there are no veterinary surgeons who have specialized discus knowledge in South Africa, and I have vets phoning me for advice as to how to treat them!

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

+1 on Dr Elshove. He saved one of my breeding pair of Discus from Columnaris and a protozoan infection

 

Hi Prof and others.

Thanks for taking an interest in my dilemma. First off, I am loathe to use anything in my tanks from a medication point of view, and secondly I do not like stressing my fish (discus) out.

An update on the problem, is that I thought it may have been bacterial, but couldn't conclusively say. So I bumped my tank temp up to 33' (from 30') and have been closely monitoring the pH. 6.5. (it dropped to just below 5ush I will be reducing the temp again on Sat.

I have manually removed two more of these "growths" which resemble and pardon this, a piece of chewed biltong that may get lodged in between your teeth...white and fleshy. They were all on the same fish and as of this morning I can't see anything else untoward.

The cardinal however is still in quarantine, and have treated it with KMnO4 (very dilute) it seems to be responding, but I am non the wiser as to what caused the swelling behind its gills. I am sure it was not dropsy, but do suspect that it may have been pH related. (temp 30' ph 7)

 

Also... Thanks for the Vet recommendation. I have looked Dr Paul Elshove and have his details should the need arise... It turns out he is less than 10Km from me, which in jozzie is less than a stone throw! It never occurred to me that Vets would take an interest in tropical fish ...eish...thanks Prof!

 

Hi Scaly,

A few more comments:

Moving the temp to 33 is good but you MUST have good aeration as the oxygen solubility goes down drastically at this high temp. Also most other fishes are beyond their heat limit at this temp and have a very good chance of dying.

A pH of 5 is normal for discus to handle, the pH in my system runs at pH 4, but no lower for weeks without problems. This is the natural pH of the water in the Amazon in winter. This is NOT the cause of your problem.

I would never "remove growths" manually on discus, you are stressing the hell out of the fishes and are damaging their slime coat and removing what looks like a growth is not helping to solve the problem, the problem comes from the inside of the fish, removing what is outside is purely cosmetic and not treating the cause.

If your cardinal was showing a swelling behind the gills the chances are good that the problem is bacterial. KMnO4 will have little effect on this. Cardinals in nature occur in water of which the temp is rarely over 26C so the high temperature in your discus setup will cause their metabolism to run at a much too high rate and they then burn out much faster. Great for the guy who sells you the fish in the pet shop, but not great for the fish. How long do the cardinals last on average in your tank? For this reason they are not good tankmates for discus and you won't find them in specialists tanks.

Importantly, I want to know what you are feeding your discus, because I think your problem is food related. Can you give me some details please.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Hi Prof

As far as the manual removal...I should have elaborated, my discus are very tame and allow me to get very close, in fact they take food from my fingers. So I literally picked the "stuff" off if, and there was little resistance or panic and no handling. (slowly slowly). I will monitor the "patient" and if the "stuff" reappears I will take a pic. There does not seem to be any disruption in the scales, although the slime layer appears a bit "dirty" (bits of sediment from the tank lodged in there)

I have had the same cardinals in for over a year and half now and when they do expire I am not planning on replacing them. (5 at present started with 6, 1 in quar but will put him in my other com tank if it recovers) When my discus were small the tank looked empty (240l). The only other tank mates are a pair of Bolivian Rams. Also I only have 5 discus. The biggest is 130mm top to bottom. The rest are about 100-120mm. Picture in avatar. I got these guys last year Feb and they were all 60mm.

Diet: Every morning I feed them dry food granules. (Tetra Colour mixed with Sera Granules). I also drop a few dried shrimp pellets for them to nibble on.

Evenings: Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun - Frozen Blood worm. Tues: Frozen Ox heart, Thurs: Fresh Earthworm; Sat: Frozen Discus mix (German brand can't remember its name)

From time to time (every 2 weeks) I feed them a little crushed garlic.

There is an abundance of algae which they nibble on from time to time.

I add Discus tonic once a week with water changes and use 2/3 RO 1/3 tap water which I age in drums (heater and airstone) before water change. I raised the pH using a small amount of soda carb.

Thanks again...

Also...I will allow the pH to gradually go back to 5 as I panicked a bit when I saw it had dropped so low and over adjusted...this will probably take a few weeks...

Thanks again.

 

Hi Scaly,

From what you describe, it almost sounds more like an injury as a result of the fish darting into the gravel, and that the white "stuff" was a piece of something that the fish picked up rather than something that came from within. If it starts off again take a pic and let me have a look at it.

With regard to your tank, you should take into account that you should be looking at 50 litres minimum per adult discus, that is without anything else and with excellent, not good, but excellent filtration! The filtration rate should be one and a half times the tank volume per hour.

Re the food. One of the possible problems that may result in this white stuff, and that is why I asked about the diet, is that you may have a flagellate infection which results in hole in the head disease, I am sure that you will have heard about this and that it is one of the most common problems in discus. This is because all discus carry this organism (we should not talk about a parasite here, because it is not a worm in the true sense but a protozoan). This organism occurs in the gut and does not normally cause problems in healthy discus, but if you have a shortage of vitamin C, then these organisms become infective and infect particularly the head region of the fish and cause holes to form from which white strings can start exuding. These can however be on any part of the body including the tail region as you describe. You can medicate if the disease is more advanced but the best is to make sure that you have enough Vitamin C in the diet, and I am not sure that I see enough things with Vitamin C in your diet.

I am not sure about the granules, I would check on tetra bits but I think they have more Vitamin C but this is not enough!

I would cut down on the bloodworm, it contains no vitamin C, and mainly contains roughage and has very little feeding value. The fish like to eat it because it is like sweets, but not very nutritious.

You should be feeding frozen brine shrimps at least three times per week, which have other important nutrients that are not present in any other foods.

You should actually not just feed frozen ox heart, particularly if it is local ox heart because there are too many steriods used in beef feeding that particularly go and sit in the heart muscle. This sterilizes the male dsicus. European beef heart mixtures are much better because the steroid use there is prohibited and strongly regulated. The European beef heart mixtures should contain spinach, and vitamin additives to add to the vitamin C and other vitamin content of the food. Garlic and onion is also often added to these mixes which is also very good and this inhibits parasites (worm infestations, not protozoans) to which discus are very prone. This should be fed at least three times a week.

Your earthworms are fine as long as they are not feed on vegetable waste from any vegetable store in SA as there are too high levels of pesticides in SA in the veg.......

The garlic is good, but more goes in in the beafheart mixes.

I would also feed some flakes that contain Spirulina because of again the unique nutrients this contains.

See also my advice on feeding discus in the sticky thread. Let me know if you might need such foods and I may be able to help you.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Hey guys, Dr Paul Elshove is a definate must if you have any hassles with you fish. We are importers and wholesalers of fish and even though we have a good idea of what to treat and to use we still get some strange things coming in from overseas sometimes, and end up taking it to paul to clarify. Paul has done some breeding in his day as well.

 

Have to agree with Dirk. People are too quick to medicate. Identifying and finding the cause of the problem should be the first priority. Treating wrong medications can lead to wasted time and eventually cause you to lose your fish. Before running off to a vet, look at the value of your fish first. In the case of a discus, it is worth the trouble of seeing a vet. As far as I know, Dr David Huchzermeyer, is the only qualified fish vet in the country. Unfortunately, he's out in Lydenburg somewhere. He use to do a range of medications, but the SA pet trade, as usual, did not support him.

So much for "local is lekker."

 

fish vets

Dee,

Dr Huchzermeyer is known for his fish meds, however he is not the only registered fish vet in SA. Dr Neville Marais who works with Dr Elshove is known for his koi expertise. He was well known in the koi society circles and still does a lot with them. Paul has vast experience with fish and will give sound advice if you get stuck with anything. As you say huchzemeyer is a bit far out.

 

Intaquatics, welcome to TASA, I'd advise you to go to the new member section and introduce yourself.