Can I feed dried and freeze dried foods if they are past their sell by date?

Ok, let me start this by giving a slightly different angle first. My boss runs a cycling club (called Bionic), and part of the clubs inclome was generated from a sale of their sports nutrition supplements which they specifically imported for the cycling sport.

We have the stuff at out offices, and most of the stuff has "expired". I say "expired" in inverted comma's because according to legislation, all food, tablets, etc (basically anything for human or animal consumption) has to have an expiry date on the packaging, regardless of whether it actually expires or not. We have received certification from the manufacturers of the nutrition suppements stating that the stuff is doesn't expire as fast as the stamp on the product, but according to legislation, you can only give these types of product a maximum of 2 year shelf life. Although in reality the product would last (sealed) for approximately 5-8 years.

That being said, I popped into my local LPS today to get a few stuff, and have a look at the revamp of their store. Having purchased about R200+ of stuff, (with my 20% "preferred customer" discount HEEHEE), the owner gave me the following food- free of charge:

Hikari Daphnia
Hikari Ocean plankton
Hikari Tubifex worms
Hikari Krill.

Basically it is all live food that has been freezedried.

The reason it was given to me was because the product has all expired... and obviously because of courtesy, the LPS owner isn't prepared to sell is anymore, but gives it away to anyone wanting it. I wasn't wanting it, but it was a gesture of "come back".

Needless to say, I simply trust this LPS owner with a lot of fish related queries, for 2 reasons:
(1) he has actually got some degrees behind his name with regards to domestic animals, so he has a passion for animals, rather than just the cash reward.
(2) he is an avid pet enthusiast himself, and I have seen his own personal fish set ups he has.

He basically gave me the same story... i.e legislation on the expiry date etc etc, but that the fish food is not expired, and this is what he personally feed his fish.

The question I have is basically would this food still be alright?

Secondly, the volume of food is equivalent to about 2 coke cans in size. Would it be possible to mix all this food together to make my own "mix", and then keep the balance in an airtight container in the freezer? The owner said to me that once I've opened the containers, I should try finish the stuff within 2 months.

 

Hikari Ocean plankton 68%crude protein-puts my goldfish in the "mood"
I am guilty of using expired food

 

Hi Zoom,

You have bowled a big ball at me again this evening.

In simple terms, different substances used in nutrition break down at different rates. However, the law states two years is as long as something can last. We therefore have a conflict between legislators who want a simple solution and chemical common sense, which says that some substances are stable for only a short time whilst others last longer. In general things like sugars such as glucose last longer, but things like proteins last a lot less longer. This is because proteins can be damaged by oxidation.

So, the supplements for cycling are mainly for energy purposes and are therefore mostly sugars, can outlast the expiry date very considerably and your boss is actually correct.

On the Hikari products, the components that you are interested in are the proteins. Freeze dried foods are foods that have been prepared in a wet form and then the water has been removed by a process called freeze drying. In principle this process is good for food preservation because if food is wet and at room temperature it will rot. However, if you remove the water, then the food cannot rot any longer. However, a disadvantage of the freeze drying process is that although the food is dry the process allows air and therefore oxygen to get right into the food. What this means for proteins is that they will be broken down and that their nutritional value will be lost. In the case of proteins in freeze dried foods this is pretty drastic and the food will have lost the critical components that would really make the food nutritious and this stuff is actually not adequate any longer for normal feeding.

I am sorry to say therefore that I would not use the Hikari foods any longer. They have lost most of their nutritious value and if you feed them, your fishes will have deficiencies in their diet.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Thank you Professor,

That answers my questions 110%. As I hit the post button on the original post, I glanced at the tubs sitting next to me, and read "Multi-Vitamin Enriched" on all of them... and the first thing that came to mind was this:

"The Professor is going to tell me that it'll have lost most, if not all, it's nutritional value."

I KNOW my fish are getting excellent nutritional food at the moment, because they are only getting your food at the moment. As this was given to me, I was just curious to hear your take on it, with it being expired. (some of it even as far back at March 2008). I wasn't going to turn down over R400.00 worth of food if there was still any benefit to it... but because I didn't actually spent R400.00 on it, I don't feel guilty putting it in with the trash.

Thanks for the response Professor.

Regards

Z

 

Prof does your answer only apply to freeze dried foods?
I had a similar experience a week ago at my lfs,in my case the food was hikari discus sticks wich were expired and where
Basically given away at a very low price.so I bought a pack since I figured I had nothing to loose.
I was going to ask the same question zoom did just I did not have time.

So are these discus sticks okay?
Ps I don't have discus and I would never feed them expired food if I'd did!
I bought the food with the intention to feed endler fry as a supplement every 3rd day for some colour enhancement.

Thanx

Chrz

 

Hi Zoom and Brads,

Yes, my answer also applies to dried foods as well. If you see how foods are packaged this already tells you part of the story. All large food manufacturers have a huge problem in that what would be best for the fish is that they eat the food within one or two months after manufacture. In a large distribution chain this is impossible. So, they firstly seal the food containers with foil seals to stop further oxygen from getting into the package. Secondly, they add anti-oxidants. A variety of these are used, some are artificial others natural. One very important natural anti-oxidant which fish also use and need in their diet is vitamin C and you would see that some companies actually make a big spiel about the fact that they have added this and this benefits the fishes. It does benefit the fishes but the primary reason why they add it is to protect the food from oxidation, they want to protect their own food. The argument with these antioxidants is then that they themselves will first be oxidized before the food gets oxidized and damaged. So all of this is a balancing act and the older the food the more likely the food is to be damaged.

However, some fishes such as guppies can survive on a diet which is of very low value, others cannot and one can consider feeding such food to fishes that do not require such high quality foods. This however means that fishes such as discus and dwarf cichlids very definitely cannot be fed such foods.

I want to mention one more thing. Oxygen penetration into frozen foods is much less. Also proteins in particular are much better protected in a frozen state. That is why I maintain that it is vital to feed frozen foods. My personal opinion on freeze dried foods is that they just simply do not have the nutritional value of frozen foods and that is why I do not feed them. In dried foods the producer can push up the antioxidants to protect the food but in normal freeze dried foods this is not possible and this food is therefore particularly vulnerable to oxidation.

Foods such as brine shrimps are an excellent example. Brine shrimps contain the highest content of sulfur containing amino acids of any food. Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. Fishes need these sulfur containing amino acids particularly if they are to breed or if they are growing. Freeze dried brine shrimps would loose these sulfur containing amino acids in a very short time, whilst in frozen brine shrimps these components will remain intact and stable for very much longer.

That's my sermon for this Sunday guys.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

If your fish still eats it why not?

 

If your baby boy eats cardboard, why not? It'll fill him will it not? Heck, it probably won't kill him.

If it's got no nutritional value... then why feed it.

 

Hi Mattie,

Your question is highly relevant and Zoom, your answer is correct as well, but let me illustrate in direct terms what the results are of feeding a diet that is highly deficient in nutrients.

I regularly get emails, PMs on forums and phone calls from persons that have problems with their discus. One of the first questions that I ask is what they feed their fishes and in the majority of cases, the reply is that they are fed Tetra Bits and bloodworms. Tetra bits in principle is a good food, but it is deficient in many of the sensitive protein components that I have mentioned previously in this thread amd bloodworms are basically roughage and have a very low level of proteins which are totally inadequate for discus. When I tell folks that this is totally inadequate, I get told that the LFS had told them that this was the correct diet, and then I get told that the fishes like eating this food. Well all fishes will eat bloodworms because they taste good. That does not mean that the food is nutritious. That is like telling children that they can from now on eat only sweets. Bottom line is that for good growth and health fishes must be fed a balanced diet and this is not obvious, you need to know how to put together a balanced diet for your fishes and expired foods are not going to help this even if they like eating the food.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Hi Zoom,

You say you trust your LPS owner, so why do you think that he will knowingly give food away that may harm your fish in the long run?
I personally don’t know why he doesn't feed the food to his own fish in the shop.(dryfood gets vacuum sealed)
Surely that would be the best thing to do in a business point of view.
Give your fish some credit here.
If you throw in kellogs corn flakes would they eat it?
They know what to eat and not to eat.

mattie

How do we know if the packet of bloodworms in the fridge is past its due date? How do we know when it was packed for that matter?:wondering:

 

Hi Mattie,

I would also like it if my frozen food would have a manufacture date, I would feel more comfortable if I knew the manufacture date. However, frozen food is far less susceptible to oxidation damage than freeze dried and dried food as I explained before.

You say: "They know what to eat and not to eat." Fishes and humans for that matter as well, do not know what they should eat and what is good for them, they just eat what they are offered, sure they won't eat corn flakes, but they will eat expired food for example and not know the difference. This comes because all biological organisms are driven by survival. If they are hungry they want to eat and will eat what is offered. So you need to know what a balanced diet is and feed this to them.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

prof I wanted to research this before asking to put my beliefs forward but I could not find much information on my thoughts .

you say fish food looses its nutritional value once its expired I agree with your logic . what I would like to know if the food looses its other properties aswell, those that are non nutrition related ?

what im referring to are the colour enhancement properties of the discus sticks I purchased will they still be present ? or do they also disapate over time ?

I know this question is a bit difficult as its hard to determine what exactly is used in fish food to enhance colour . from what I can gather carotenoid fortifier is the main colour enhancer in these discus sticks . im sure other ingredients also contribute but there is just to many for me to understand on the packaging!

thanx

 

Hi Brads,

Yes the colour enhancers will also diminish with time. Colour enhancers that are added are normally ones trying to introduce red colouration. Again these can be natural or artificial including food colorants, some of which have been banned for human use. The most commonly used colourants are cathaxanthin and/or astaxanthin which are natural red colourants. In natural systems these are produced by algae and are then taking up by shrimps, which then look pink. Fish eat these and their flesh becomes pink as is the case with salmon. Interestingly the pink colour of flamingoes also comes from the pink colour of shrimps.

I would think that "carotid fortifier" would be an artificial colourant.

Hope this answers your question.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Some interesting info regarding freeze-dried food from Wikipedia:

If a freeze-dried substance is sealed to prevent the reabsorption of moisture, the substance may be stored at room temperature without refrigeration, and be protected against spoilage for many years. Preservation is possible because the greatly reduced water content inhibits the action of microorganisms and enzymes that would normally spoil or degrade the substance.

 

I trusted the LPS owner not to give me food that would cause more of a head-ache long term. He knows my set up, and that I'm a little more passionate about my fish than the average joe who puts in a few fish and plastic plants.
Why he doesn't use it in his store, I could not tell you. I however have found out that this is what he is feeding his own fish.

Look, the food will not kill the fish, immedietely, but if it is the only source of food that is being supplied to the fish, then yes, through basic malnutrition, it will eventually kill the fish.

This is correct, to a degree, and I think the Professor will clarrify. You need to bear in mind that the food in question was EXPIRED March 2008... that's 2 years ago... how much BEFORE that date was the food made?








{On a side note, and something that I may, or may not start a new thread about..

THis is NOT in any way related to your reference Mattie... it was just that your reference brought it to my attention.

In the academic world, (Professor, could you clarrify this too?), Wikipedia is not an accepted source of definitions or research. The idea of Wikipedia is to have a HUGE data base of knowledge and experience going into the research, which is updated continually by "users". The problem is that a lot of the research that is logged onto wikipedia is in fact incorrect.
I have currently started a new study course, and the very first lecture I have was on internet searching. We were blatantly told- Google is NOT your friend, and a Wikipedia reference in any of our (11) assignments will result in that assignment being a failure. They go on to explain that when you use google, or any other search engine, the search locates ANY reference to what you typed in the search box. Granted when you are searching something specific, or something that is black and white in answer, you will get the general concensus. However, when you are searching something that is not clear cut, (lighting in an aquarium) for example, your answer will be to someone's opinion. We have been told that we will find out the "suggested" source or research at the end of our studies.}

 

Freeze-Dried Fish Food
As the years go by, the percentage of freeze-dried foods in our fish's diet has increased. We found them to be equal to frozen foods in their ability to condition breeding fish. However, frozen fish foods can contain very high levels of dangerous bacteria, so we have replaced with the freeze-dried fish foods. Freeze-dried fish foods do not spoil as easily. Bacterial levels tend to be much lower and they're more convenient. In addition, the freeze-drying process kills any fish parasites that are often found in live and frozen foods. (http://www.angelsplus.com/FoodDried.htm

 

Zoom,
I agree that the expired food will not immediately do harm to your fish...especially if you feed it in conjunction with "balanced" food. Personally my own fish are very finicky about what they eat and refuse to eat any other food than their regular diet. Thusfar I learned through trail and error and appreciate everyone’s input...

 

Hi Guys,

I have a long day ahead of me so this will be my only reply until this evening at least.

Wikipedia is correct in what they say, but they ignore the oxidation issue because this does not apply to all things that you freeze dry. However, it is particularly the proteins that are the important part of the foods, and these are susceptible to oxidation as I have explained.

Mattie, I agree that frozen foods can harbour bacteria, but then the source of the food is critical. If you buy el cheapo frozen foods that come from Singapore or Malaysia (I won't give brand or supplier names here, but these are imported into SA and are the most commonly sold ones) and that have been cultivated from the runoff of pig runs then the bacterial load is going to be massive. If you smell the stuff you can already smell that this stuff stinks. Feed this to any fish and you will have trouble. Feed it to discus and you have a disaster. In my purchase of frozen foods from Germany, I have specifically concentrated on importing frozen foods from reliable sources that are grown in natural waters and are not loaded with bacteria. So in my comparison of freeze dried and frozen foods, I have not even considered the cheap contaminated foods as an alternative, but have considered only the very high quality frozen food that I import.

The final passing comment about "In addition, the freeze-drying process kills any fish parasites that are often found in live and frozen foods. " should also be interpreted very carefully. The freezing process very definitely kills parasites, I do not know how these people can make the deduction, that FROZEN foods still harbor parasites. Live foods can contain parasites, sure, but not frozen foods as far as my knowledge goes (we must also be very careful about what we define as parasites here, I mean gill and skin flukes and internal worms).

Kind regards,

Dirk