phenolic compounds

[oscar freak]

as if the science of aquaria is not enough to drive a person insane it seems the plants themselves are conspiring to drive me over the edge.the more i read up trying to get a better understanding the more i find out how little i know.now it phenolic compounds excreted by certain plants which inhibit the growth of other plants around them the red tiger lotus being one of them apparently,are there any others?

[Skye01]

Huh?:huh:...:blink: I had no clue that it happens in aquarium plants... but, I know that you can't keep apples and bananas with certain other fruit because it causes that fruit to ripen faster or even to go off...

I think you are trying to confuse Noobs like me with all the tech stuff and, guess what...? You are succeeding! Hehehe

[oscar freak]

its firemanmuzz that cottoned me on to it,i think hairgrass is one of them as well.

[GG13]

It's funny. I was just telling a colleague of mine that it more work caring for plants than the fish... The things we put ourselves through...

[Reedfish]

It's funny. I was just telling a colleague of mine that it more work caring for plants than the fish... The things we put ourselves through...

That's why I don't bother too much with plants. :musicus:

Would nutrients not be more of a limiting factor?

[Zoom]

quote=GG13;131826]it more work caring for plants than the fish...[/quote]

Try and explain that it's not only more hard work, but costs more too... then you get the wierd looks!

[oscar freak]

Would nutrients not be more of a limiting factor?

with reguards to?

[Rudi]

I would not worry about phenolic compounds/acids too much.All the science and biology is very interesting though.
The chemicals secreted by aquatic plants to inhibit the growth of competing plants are mild and the effects are in fact hard to prove by scientists.All aquatic plants produce a number of defencive compounds that will mildly inhibit organisms,either predators,algae or other plants.
To over come the "effects" of the phenolic acids frequent water changes will "dilute" the compounds and prevent it's accumulation.
So my advice is to do frequent water changes.

[Sean J]

Ja, and big water changes too. It's pointless doing 10% each week, so 50% is the better idea. You do know that fish secrete similar growth inhibiting hormone? That is why when you do frequent water changes on fry tanks, the fry will grow quicker. Siamese Fighters and Angel Fish are some of the fish that are affected by it. There was a study done on it with fish, and a lady who breeds angels does 100% water changes daily, and her angels grow at insane rates... I can't remember where I read it, but I am pretty sure it is true. It was possibly the simply discus forum.

[Reedfish]

as if the science of aquaria is not enough to drive a person insane it seems the plants themselves are conspiring to drive me over the edge.the more i read up trying to get a better understanding the more i find out how little i know.now it phenolic compounds excreted by certain plants which inhibit the growth of other plants around them the red tiger lotus being one of them apparently,are there any others?

Just making an assumption. But in water, and especially flowing water, I don't imagine it is possible for the compounds to build up to a significant level.
On the other hand, the roots of the plant would use up the nutrients in the substrate around the plant, making it less favorable for other plants to get a "foot hold" so to speak.

[firemanmuzz]

the guys are right on the money ,from what ive read the water changes dilute the allelo chemicals ,and yes the proof seems a bit hard to come by ,but im reading the ecology of the planted aquarium and it seems to provide some interesting case studies,perhaps a bit over the top but im trying to educate myself and read as much on the plant subject as possible,since ive never had green thumbs :)

[Rudi]

Conditions in nature is obviously different than in a closed system such as an aquarium.But then we do find a single plant species dominating a specific region or stretch of river or wetland.This could point to chemical warfare between plants or some plants are better equipped to deal with specific environmental differences.
Some plants grow better in acidic water and substrate and some grow better in alkaline conditions.Some plants use bicarbonates as a source of carbon and others use Co2 as a source of carbon.

Our challenge is to accommodate all these plants in a closed system.Although these plants have been grown in commercial nurseries,they evolved in very different conditions.Take a quick look at your common plants found at the LFS.You'll see plants from South America,North America,Africa,India,Sri Lanka,etc.

To cater for all these different plants' needs will be impossible so we try and find a middle ground.Try to cover all the basis as best we can.Some plants will unfortunately fail to grow in one system but will grow in another.That is the trade off.If one fails,try another until you find a combination of plants that not only grows well but looks good together.
LFS plants are generally easy growers and can be seen as all rounders,the do well in low energy tanks as well as high energy tanks.They grow well together in just about any water parameter we may have.
If you are only interested in having a nice,green,healthy tank,stick with these and you can't go wrong..... if you provide good care.For a challenge there are more difficult plants to grow,and you won't find them at your LFS.For a reason.

[oscar freak]

Some plants will unfortunately fail to grow in one system but will grow in another.That is the trade off.If one fails,try another until you find a combination of plants that not only grows well but looks good together
this is the lesson i am probably learning right now but hard headed as i am i will keep trying to grow certain plants because as luck would have it its always the ones we want we cant have.but its also nice to know why a plant isnt doing well whether it be lack of something or whether his neighbour could be poisoning him.i do large water changes like 70% a week,i have some crypts one in particular which is the closest to the red tiger lotus is noticably smaller than the others and the colour is somewhat "off" very dark.for all i know its a different species but i will keep an eye out and see how it progresses maybe im just being paranoid.