View Full Version : List your best medication!
Hey all
After reading the thread that Gregorian posted on his sick fish, and reading the response from Dirk and Henk, I think we should have some sort of a list containing Disease and Medication that will treat it.
Members can add to this list, and give feedback from what they have used in the past. Sort of a product review?
What you think?
Vez
Gregorian
02-12-2011, 12:37
My vote as well.
Anton
mydummyname
02-12-2011, 12:49
my advice will always be, water changes water changes water changes - 10% every day will will help with many many ailments.
and for ick / ich i suggest raising the temperature to 32deg for 1 week.
my advice will always be, water changes water changes water changes - 10% every day will will help with many many ailments.
and for ick / ich i suggest raising the temperature to 32deg for 1 week.
I do agree with mydummyname
thats why i think this might help, as many new members start off with seeking help. even "old" members asking.
i think all people that have fish need to have some aquarium salt as a start!
mydummyname
02-12-2011, 14:00
i think all people that have fish need to have some aquarium salt as a start!
true, salt help a lot, however, please research your fish befor adding salt, as some fish simpy cannot tolerate salt, eg, bala sharks will get even more sick and could die.
some fish simpy cannot tolerate salt
I know the Corydoras Catfish is also very sensitive to salt. Not good for them at all.
My best medicine:
MYPAID FORTE!!!
Reedfish
02-12-2011, 17:45
There is a product in the UK called Esha 2000. Used to treat Ich, external parasites, fungus etc. I find it excellent.
true, salt help a lot, however, please research your fish befor adding salt, as some fish simpy cannot tolerate salt, eg, bala sharks will get even more sick and could die.
mydummyname, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on that. I've had Bala Sharks for many years and in every tank we've ever had we have added salt, with no ill-effects on either the Bala's, Kuhli's or Cory's, and now my Black Ghost Knives.
By Bala is a healthy 25 odd cm and still growing, my Black Ghost Knives are 35 odd cm and about 27cm, my cory's are all fully grown in at the 8/9 cm. I've had all these fish since they were tiny and I have grown them up. I must admit that I don't give the full dosage due to skinned fish but I still put salt into my tanks at almost every water change...
azurekoi
02-12-2011, 21:05
O.K...since no one has listed their "Med chest" yet... Here's the stuff I never run out of...
- trichlofon - great for parasites like trichodina or other little flagelated protozoans...
- Potasium permanganate - great allrounder,from bacterial(Gram negatives) to even Flukes...
- Acriflavine - for those nasty Costia infections...
- Terramycin - heavy gram negative bacterial infections
- Erythromycin - for heavy gram positive infections... and works wonders on Cyanobacteria as well
My treatments mostly based on what I have done with koi and ponds over the years - find that this aproach works much better(and cheaper) than the "Anti everyting in a little overpriced bottle" you get shoved in hand from most LFS's...
Most important weapon in my arsenal is a microscope however - how can you treat if you dont know what you are treating for?
Most important weapon in my arsenal is a microscope however - how can you treat if you dont know what you are treating for?
This is the post of the year, in my opinion. It is exactly this reason, that I am extremely wary of treating fish. Also, what if you don't treat properly and you create a resistant strain of the thing you were trying to get rid of?
The best thing is to consult someone who actually knows what they are doing, and what they are talking about. And, unfortunately, most LFS's do not have a cooking clue what they are doing.
azurekoi
02-12-2011, 21:25
Sean J - thanks mate! Normal visual diagnosis can only get one so far.... Like 30 years ago you could just dump anything in and your problems would be solved...not so today unfortunately... resistant strains abound in the hobby today,so I do my very best not to add to this problem by first identifying what I'm dealing with,then treating with a specific chemical that has a proven track record against that problem...
Unless you go to extremes,the concept of a completely parasite free fish is almost not possible - keeping them housed in optimal conditions,with excelent nutrition though,goes a long way in helping their immune systems to take care of any problems or to keep it in check...
Exactly. That is why I feed my inmates the best food I can buy. when I have fish again, this will still be the case. A good quality, varied diet, is the best medication for any fish. A fish with a good immune system, will not get sick.
So I think feeding, and good nutrition is the first step to healthy fish.
Razer2007
02-12-2011, 22:09
How much salt must be added per 100l or so?
The only medication I have ever used is AquaDene- for gill, fungus, parasite; and Marpet anti-ick.
BTW does meds have an expiration date?
azurekoi
02-12-2011, 22:27
< --- Throws his hands up in despair..... How can one medication treat gill(?),fungus and parasites(?) Razer,find yourself a GOOD LFs and stick to them... Oh,I wont consider them to be a "good LFS" if they dont own a microscope and are proficient in its use and identification of parasites....
Prsonally this is like 3 of them in SA that I know of btw....
Expiration dates should be on the bottles - if not,I wont keep it for longer than a year from when I bought it...
As for how much salt,how long is a piece of string? - you live in CT,where your tap water is very soft and has very few salts mixed in already....so a tablespoon of rock salt per 10 liters or so will be ample for most common fish....
Up here in Gauteng,our water comes with that concentration of salt already mixed in... so it all depends on where you live,what fish you keep and why you want to add salt...
Freshwater fish constantly lose mineral salts they acumilate from their food etc to their environment through osmosis - boosting the level of salt in your tank allows the fish to retain more of these salts that they can then use ase building blocks for repairing cells or boosting their immunity...
Personally - I save the salt for when I have a problem in a tank(or are keeping species that naturally live in water that has a high TDS) - salt never leaves your system,unless you physically remove water and replace it with fresh...
Have in the past attended to people/cleints who have mysterious deaths from time to time in old ponds/tanks,only to eventualy get down to the true problem - adding salt every time they do a water change and getting their calculations wrong... You want to add salt - invest in a good salinometer - otherwise its the same as dosinf that "Cure All" meds from the LFS..... It's science,not guesswork that makes you a good aquarist....
Razer2007
02-12-2011, 22:42
Whew you just blew me away. I'm going to sit in the corner over there OK?
LOL jk. I understand that there's much more to the hobby that what I know but I have learned a lot in the past few days too. I bought the med a few years ago at our perky pets (I was like 12 I think) so I didn't know sheet about all this. I normally just add a bit more than a table spoon to the whole 100l after adding completely new water.
Looks like I'll be buying all sorts of meters soon - water hardness, salt, nitrate, nitrite, ammonia etc. I do have a thermometer mind you!
Singularity
03-12-2011, 00:25
adding salt every time they do a water change and getting their calculations wrong... You want to add salt - invest in a good salinometer - otherwise its the same as dosinf that "Cure All" meds from the LFS..... It's science,not guesswork that makes you a good aquarist....
I know 0 fresh water aquarists with a salinometer/refractometer, will it even pick up the minute amount of salt ?
azurekoi
03-12-2011, 06:01
Yup it will... the good old "1 heaped tablesalt per 10 literss" gives you a reading of 1.0001 on a refracrometer... On swing arm salinometers you got to do a bit of boer maak n plan - lots of how to on Youtube - you drill the arm to make it lighter and recalibrate with known salt solutions....
Dirk Bellstedt
03-12-2011, 08:00
HI Guys,
I have just looked at this thread, and red warning lights light up all over the show. Unless you are qualified in the chemistry of medications (if you are not a pharmacist, chemist, medical doctor or vet) , this sort of expressing an opinion about a medication is extremely dangerous. You have already disagreed on the use of salt, who is right, and who is going to decide who is right?
Then I see a string of other medications mentioned, some are not available in SA, some are completely antiquated and others are extremely toxic to both humans and fishes. Medications actually have to be registered for use in SA, but the whole registration process for medications is somehow sidestepped when fish medications are imported, I actually do not know how the importers get around this, but I think it has to do with total ignorance on behalf of the authorities and very shrewd use of importation codes by the importers.
A few comments on the meds mentioned:
Esha 2000 is a German medication and is quite good, but does not mention its active ingredients because they get away with this in Germany, not good, but it does work and it is not available in SA.
Azurekoi, I hope that you realize that trichlofon is an organophosphate insect poison and is a nerve toxin for humans and fishes. Put your hand in a tank into which you have put this stuff for about 15 minutes and you can die and your fishes, if treated with this stuff are pretty close to death if you use it in any case. It can be used to treat flukes and external parasites but it does absolutely nothing to flagellates. Yes, it will kill Trichodina, but without warning folks about its toxicity, I am very concerned about the fact that it is just listed here as a "good" medication. There are many, very effective and safer medications than trichlorfon, so please be careful here.
Acriflavin belongs into the meseum of aquarium meds. It may be effective, but chemically we call this an acridine dye and this is carcinogenic for fishes and humans. If you treat fishes with this, you have a good chance of sterilizing them in the process, so this should not be used any longer, but it is still sold as a cheap medication in the LFS.
My personal opinion is that this thread is going nowhere and will only lead to confusion and possibly even the death of an aquarist or two, I would recommend that persons inquire on a case by case basis on the specific disease problems that they have and that we then try to find a specific solution for this problem.
Kind regards,
Dirk
azurekoi
03-12-2011, 08:39
Note taken Prof,but my med chest has been built up over many years of trial and error - I use what works for me.... I never handle raw chemicals without Gloves in any case... When you work in the Retail side of this hobby and regularly have to work with these chemicals,you HAVE to take precautions seriously...
Acriflavine is the only thing I(and the koi world in general) know that will kill that highly resistant strain of Costia that originated in Japan... I have used this extensivly on many koi(5 - 6 ppm + 5kg salt per 1000l) and have had MANY sucsesfull spawnings afterwards..... Maybe me and profesional koi breeders all over the world have just been very lucky in not sterilizing our fish...
I have used Trichlorphon to treat resistant trains of Chilodinella,where nothing else has worked - If Chilodinella is not a Flagelated protozoan,then my bad and I retract that then... As for its efficacy on Flukes - I have my doubts on that,has never been succesfull in treating Both Gill or Body fluke with it at what is generally accepted treatment levels....
Dirk Bellstedt
03-12-2011, 08:50
Hi Azure,
Let me first of all say that I am not criticizing you here, but I am deeply concerned about making a general thread about medications.
I agree with what you are saying in your last post, but when you mentioned those meds previously, you did not tell us about the precautions and for which application. What you are telling us about is for use in koi and not for general use in tropicals.
If you treat things like rams with these meds they will be stone dead or sterile and if the persons that do not know about the precautions that you have just outlined, then they will also be stone dead.
So, I wish to reiterate that I think this thread is leading to something that could have disastrous consequences, and I would actually feel much better if it was closed or completely deleted for that matter. Could the mods please give us their wisdom, I think I have now said my say.
Kind regards,
Dirk
That is more than scary! Not only dead/sterile fish but dead/cancer suffering fish keepers!
Hi guys.
I read the title to this thread and thought - 'Wooow, this is dangerous' before I even read the posts it contained. I'm not going to add fuel to this fire, but I do want to add my thoughts.
It is an extremely risky scenario to just list medicine's and its uses indiscriminantly. A good understanding and knowledge is required of both the medicine, the ailment and the fish to be treated. As indicated in previous posts by others, some medicines are toxic, to humans and fish, other medicine are fine when used on scaled fish, but deadly to scaleless fish species. I therefore agree that this thread can lead to members, in a state of panic to just jump at jhe medicine and ultimately cause more damage than good.
When I read the title I had this idea that this thread would have been better served if its intension was - 'How to limit the outbreak of any form of disease, parasite or pathogen in the aquarium"
Fact of matter is, and I'm no expert or statitician, but most, if not ALL problems in the aquaria are introduced by us, the aquarist. We put the parasites in the tank, we introduce the bacterial problems, we allow for the spread and devastation of these in our tanks by not following good aquaria protocol, buying 'bad' fish, not using quarantine facilities, and feeding cheap, crappy and infected foods.
I thus dnt object to this thread completely, as I can see merit in its intention, but I do feel we can go about it differently, and more positively.
Rgds
Marco
Razer2007
04-12-2011, 14:31
So you might use a med in a community tank to heal a fish species, and then in turn kill another?
Correct. Loaches are particularly sensitive to medications. So you could kill them, while treating another fish in your tank. That's why it is best to have a separate hospital/quarantine tank to treat fish in.
Double-D
04-12-2011, 14:57
Correct. Loaches are particularly sensitive to medications. So you could kill them, while treating another fish in your tank. That's why it is best to have a separate hospital/quarantine tank to treat fish in.
That is so true. And due to them being so sensitive you can in fact damage them by nursing them the wrong way. Lost both my lohachata loaches due to over nursing by mistake
Sent from my BlackBerry 9530 using Tapatalk
Hmm not sure it will qualify as a medication if I look at the stuff currently mentioned in the thread - tea seems to work - reduces stress and even helps for infections. It has worked for me in the past esp in a QC tank etc.
wow, did not think this thread will turn out like this,,,,
the whole point was to add a disease, and the meds you use to treat it,(and that one can find at the LFS and thats made for the disease)
White Spot: Raise the Temp to 32C, do daily 10% WC and feed them good food
Floating to the top of the water level: Do a good size WC and skip a feed, as this might be constipation. or low levels of oxygen in the water, add some oxygen to the tank and monitor.
Razer2007
04-12-2011, 17:46
How do you add O2 to the tank?
i have a sub filter, that has a inlet that you connect to a air pump, then the outlet releases PLENTY of bubbles
Razer2007
04-12-2011, 18:18
Ah ok and an airstone would also work right? Or like a bubble curtain?
Ah ok and an airstone would also work right? Or like a bubble curtain?
Create surface agitation to get more O2 into the water.
Razer2007
04-12-2011, 18:28
Oh ok. my filter creates a nice flow on the surface with some ripples. Will this be enough?
Reedfish
04-12-2011, 18:43
HI Guys,
I have just looked at this thread, and red warning lights light up all over the show. Unless you are qualified in the chemistry of medications (if you are not a pharmacist, chemist, medical doctor or vet) , this sort of expressing an opinion about a medication is extremely dangerous. You have already disagreed on the use of salt, who is right, and who is going to decide who is right?
Then I see a string of other medications mentioned, some are not available in SA, some are completely antiquated and others are extremely toxic to both humans and fishes. Medications actually have to be registered for use in SA, but the whole registration process for medications is somehow sidestepped when fish medications are imported, I actually do not know how the importers get around this, but I think it has to do with total ignorance on behalf of the authorities and very shrewd use of importation codes by the importers.
A few comments on the meds mentioned:
Esha 2000 is a German medication and is quite good, but does not mention its active ingredients because they get away with this in Germany, not good, but it does work and it is not available in SA.
Kind regards,
Dirk
I agree with Dirk,
The use of medication is a dangerous practice.
For me, the me main issue is that when one sees a sick fish, one is only guessing at what's wrong. None of us are vets, and there are literally hundreds of fish diseases. There are a few common and easily treatable diseases like Ich and fungus. But beyond that it's guess work. If your fish is looking down, and not eating is it....a virus? bacteria? parasite? Without vetenary equipment, it's hard to say.
I have seen it so many times on various Forums. Someone posts that they have a sick fish. There will then be 20 people suggesting 20 different treatments. And each has a diagnosis that is a guess at best. And they all can't be right.
My new approach is if a fish has something like Ich, or fungus, I treat with Esha 2000 in a hospital tank.
If it looks more serious, I still put the fish in the hospital tank, do numerous water changes, but I let nature take its course. I do not feel I am doing the correct thing by trying to guess what is wrong and then putting various medications into the tank, most of which is only a guess as to whether they will treat or not.
azurekoi
04-12-2011, 20:41
Reedfish - we dont have the miracle you call Esha 2000 available here in SA - sounds like good stuff though...
I should have posted a "surgeons general warning" with my list,but to me precaution is just 2nd nature - I have had literally millions of fish under my care(Some my own - most in the various shops,fish farms I have worked in) so have sort of become quite proficient in treating fish ailments beyond what the genaral hobbyist encounters out there... 20 to 30 years ago it was easy - less resistant parasites/bacteria made ones job easier...
I dont advocate that the home hobbyist with a tank or two goes and uses raw chemicals like I do,but it is nice to know that there are solutions out there when LFS over the counter stuff fails...
oscar freak
09-12-2011, 07:23
so where do we go from here?fish are going to get sick and yes it is most probably the aquarists fault,we do all we can whether its good feeding,water changes and providing the best conditions we can but this thing we do"fish keeping" is probably one of the most unnatural things we do we get these fish from another side of the world and dump them in this alien enviroment where we raise temperatures almost instantly,add all sorts of chemicals(not even talking about medications)the list goes on,now im not saying its wrong because we know that some of these things work but its still unnatural and with all that we know there is more that we dont and even the most experienced aquarist is going to have problems.
Dirk Bellstedt
09-12-2011, 10:19
Hi Athol,
My opinion about the matter is that we should treat diseases on a case by case basis as we have in the past, and that persons should start individual threads if they have a problem and that we then discuss that specific problem in order to solve it. If you would go back into the various threads that we have had on topics, I think this has been very successful because we can deal with the specific problem as well as the specific circumstances and these are different in each case. Yes, even the most experienced aquarist does have problems, I will be the first to admit, but with the knowledge of all the different folks on the forum we actually come up with pretty good solutions to the problems.
So I propose business as usual, individual requests when diseases crop up (and using the disease diagnosis sheet, as this makes a diagnosis much easier).
Kind regards,
Dirk
My remedy for all illnesses start out the same.
- Big water change
- Seachem Prime
- Higher temp
- Full airflow (more oxygen)
- Rid Alll Genral Aid
That has never failed me...
O.K...since no one has listed their "Med chest" yet... Here's the stuff I never run out of...
- trichlofon - great for parasites like trichodina or other little flagelated protozoans...
- Potasium permanganate - great allrounder,from bacterial(Gram negatives) to even Flukes...
azurekoi where can i buy this product? And will it work on Gill Flukes?
After my 2 week holday I came back to a terribly sight, and my Dario Dario does not take anything but live food?! Have already lost 2..... any idea would be greatly appreciated.
azurekoi
20-04-2012, 11:33
Naomi - using Potasium to treat Gill Fluke is not a sure fire way of getting rid of them due to Dactylogyrus's high levels of immunity... rather treat with Metronidazole for better results on small fish like that...the concentration (5ppm) used to treat Flukes with Potasium permanganate would be a bit heavy for them....
Metro.... 7mg per litre - 50% waterchange after 3 days - redose tank @ 7mg per litre..then another 50% waterchange after 3 days...Flukes should be gone... BTW - How do you know its Gill Fluke - had them identified under a microscope?
Maybe fill in a full disease report for us in a new thread with all relevant info...
No, well I can't be 100% sure - like you know with micro bacteria infections its hard to identify unless with microscope.
I always expected they had but I keep really good water conditions - so never had a loss, but after 2 weeks without w/c I think it just went bad!
Symptoms is blood red gills heavy breathing... and then they once they start fading colour, they stop eating, then die!
Some of them will take odd frozen, but mainly live.... which adds to the parrasites.
Thanks for the advise, any thought if its not Flukes?
azurekoi
20-04-2012, 12:10
not going to venture a thought... I'm a bit too analytical for that - unless I see one of them under a Microscope....
Go with the Metro.... treats a few other nunu's as well,so a good catch all...
Thank you, yes know what you mean! Will give it a go, and keep my fingers crossed - I hate medicating!
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