major bacterial infection

[windfire]

hi there folks, i write this in despair, in the last few months i have lost 2 full grown 3 spot gouramis, 5 angels, numerous guppies, cories well basically most of the stock in my 1.2m. i've treated 4 times with Tetra General Tonic and still i keep losing a fish here and there. i'll have no deaths and then i lose 2 or 3 and then nothing for a week, 2 sometimes even 3 and then i lose another 2 or 3. i'm desperate now at this rate i'll lose everything thats in the tank. i was advised by someone i trust to use an antibiotic called oxytetracyclene but i'm not sure on dosage. at this point i'll try anything! does anyone have anything else i could try? there are no consistant symptoms but the ones i've noticed are loss of appetite, some red spotting on the skin and lesions. i assume its not one specific bacteria. any help will be greatly appreciated, i've bassically consiled myself to the idea that i'm going to lose all the stock in this tank, including Marvin, my bristlenose whose been with me since i started the hobby 2 years ago.

[Slojo]

I would suggest that you move them to a new tank,with the same parameters i.e. PH and Temp,but not the old water.Fish Only.
Clean out the existing tank and disinfect.
Start with new gravel and new filter media.
I know this is extreme but if all else fails.......Go Extreme.

[windfire]

i dont have a water tight tank for them at the moment, my spares are all cracked in the bottom panel. i realise that the antibiotic is a strong one and that i'll need to get it with a prescription, would a vet have it? i'm home for a week and then i go back to pta so i basically have a week to sort this thing out, particularly since i'll need to do water changes and i cant expect my mom to do those.

[Reedfish]

A few questions:
What are your water parameters? Ph, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate?
How often do you do a water change?

Can you be sure it isn't any other environmental factors causing the trouble? For eg, the bucket you use to do a water change, also doesn't get used to clean the windows?
It seems to me strange that some bacterial infection will wipe out all your fish. I have lost the odd fish here and there to various problems, but it is unusual that it will affect all your stock ..... unless there is some other underlying factor.

General Tonic probably won't deal with serious problems unfortunately.

If you do go the antibiotic route, where are you going to get it from? Surely a vet will have to prescribe it? And will be able to advise on what dose to use?
Also, something to bear in mind is that a strong antibiotic could well have a negative effect on your filter. So be careful when treating your tank.

[windfire]

to be honest with you i havnt done a parameter check in ages and the last one was done with the last of my moms pond test kit. i do weekly water changes of about 30% and weekly gravel vac. the only thing thats changed in the last few months is the lighting as one of my globes fused and i'm waiting for the second one to go so i can replace both. my riding instructors husband is a vet and a fellow fish lover so i'm going to give him a call tomorrow, if he cant help me my mom has a fish docter that helps her out when she has problems in her koi pond and goldfish ponds and if push comes to shove i'll phone her.

[Zoom]

This sounds very "fishy" to me....

I read that a basic place to start with diseases is this:
If it is external to the fish, it is an external perameter effectng.
If it is internal to the fish, it is an internal parasite, bug, bacteria etc...
The book said that whilst this is not truely accurate, it is a good place to start.

You say red spotting on the skin and lesions... which leads me to think of burning. Either an ammonia type burn, or acid. Reedfish could be onto something here. Is there any chance than an ammonia based cleaning product is getting into the water (soap from a bucket), someone cleaning the glass? Is there any furniture polish being sprayed within the vicinity? Deodorant? Hairspray?

Next course of action in my opinion would be what Slojo suggested... but we can't go that route as you say you haven't got a spare tank. Let's work with what you have then...

I don't want to rule out ammonia / nitrite spike / poisoning... however because you say this have been going on for a while, and you keep up with your 30% W/C, I doubt it could be... but let's take precaution against it in anycase...
Do a good, 80-85% W/C. Whilst you are at it, clean out your filters. Replace the Cotton wool (if you use it). Put in some new AC, and rinse out all your other filter media well in a bucket of aquarium water. Now you need to go get yourself 2 products:

* Seachem Stress Coat
* Seachem Stability. (Apologies to Henk Hugo... the Microbelift starter culter product is better than the stability IMO, however the name of it escapes me...)

Stress coat will assist the fish with stress, and will help with the slimy layer on their skin. This product is fantastic in my opinion, and no aquarists cupboard should be without it!
Stability to boost the filter.

When you go to the LPS, take along some water to be tested (Take water out the tank from before the WC) just to get some perameters.

Get back to us on that.....

[Henk Hugo]

That would be Special Blend Zoom :D

[AquaS]

This sounds like a water quality problem to me. I would definitely recommend a comprehensive water test first.

[Zoom]

This sounds like a water quality problem to me. I would definitely recommend a comprehensive water test first

Which is exactly the reason why I called for the LPS comprehensive test. We can do a nice filter clean, good water change, and when Windfire goes to purchase the stress coat and special blend, she can take the water to be tested at the same time. By the time we've got those results, we know we have done a good water change, and isolated that problem.

If the result come back that the water is fine, (which I actually believe it will be... I seriously doubt Windfire will be letting her tanks reach the point where her ammonia/nitrite is damaging her fish... she's far to responsible as an aquarist for this to be the cause), then we can start looking at alternate methods of treatment.

[Slojo]

Put in some new AC,

Zoom I seem to recall that AC removes ammonia,but when it is "full" it might start releasing it again..??
As I do not use AC I cannot really comment but that might be a cause as well.

[Zoom]

Slojo,

I've heard that only good quality AC will remove ammonia. There's huge conflicting story's about whether it will release it back or not... if you google it, you will received literally 50% say yes, and 50% say no. BOTH results can give you tests to prove their results. I think it may come down to the type of AC you use. I personally don't believe it releases back. What I believe is that the organic material that is entrapped within the AC, and possibly even cheaper brands of AC, start to break down, and because the AC is exhausted already, it won't hold it, giving the impression that it's releasing. Just my theory behind it.

[Verndog]

I have never really fully understood how people keep fish without any test kits ! LPS comprehensive tests are usually those test sticks which are not very accurate. My advice would be on top of the advice already given is buy some chemical test kits? PH;Nitrite;Ammonia;Nitrate as a minimum.... Get something like SERA to start with. It wont cost you too much....


My money is on a water quality problem or contaminated equipment(soapy buckets ect ect)

[Zoom]

My money is on a water quality problem or contaminated equipment(soapy buckets ect ect)

My money is on this as well... BUT I do not think it's from a lack of maintenance. I think something has been introduced here. Windfire is maticulous with her tanks... she wouldn't let her maintenance slip. (Don't let me down here Windfire...)

[Reedfish]

I have never heard of AC removing Ammonia.

I have also heard conflicting reports on whether it leaches harmful stuff back into the water when it is "full". Some people say that it does, while others say it depends on the size of the microscopic particles that holds onto the toxins. All very confusing.

[windfire]

nope never my tanks are my babies, lol, the only thing im lax with is plant trimming cos i like the wild look. i dont use AC as this is a planted tank that recieves no ferts as i rely on the natural nitrates ect to provide whats needed for the plants. i dont use the bucket i drain the tank with for filling the tank either, i have seperate drums for it. the tank has been without a lid for awhile as i had to take it off to sand and reseal it, the weekend i intended to start i got gastro and was in bed for a couple of days but i'll be putting the lid on this week as i think its cured enough, 2 weeks or so. its possible that furniture polish or something to that affect could have contaminated the water, as i'm only home on weekends i cant really verify it, and it never really crossed my mind oO
-
my lfs up the road opens tomorrow so i'll stop off there with a water sample and see what follows. i been trying to get a decent test kit and i know i should but in 2 years of fish keeping i've never needed one. i have been doing water changes just not as large as i usually do as i had a class moved and now have to be back in pta on a sunday night rather than a monday morning but i have been doing changes, its an important part of my weekend lol , my dog and i do them after training usually lol. weekends usually involve me running around like a headless chicken trying to get to everyone and every thing.

discusguy unfortunately i'm a full time student and generally money is tight every month. i believe that as long as you keep up with water changes your tanks should be fine. i also only have fairly hardy sp in here i know im not ideal for the more finicky species because i'm not specific enough in my water parameters.

thanks for all the help guys i'll let you know the results tomorrow.

[Verndog]

the tank has been without a lid for awhile as i had to take it off to sand and reseal it, the weekend i intended to start i got gastro and was in bed for a couple of days but i'll be putting the lid on this week as i think its cured enough, 2 weeks or so. its possible that furniture polish or something to that affect could have contaminated the water, as i'm only home on weekends i cant really verify it, and it never really crossed my mind oO


I am pretty sure this is the case. Is this tank in your bedroom or changing area? It's very possible that deodrant or any other sprays are settling in the tank.


2 years of fish keeping i've never needed one.

As you said you are keeping rather hardy species, so you wouldnt really know if you needed one or not : ) You might have passed many near misses in those two years, but it sounds like they may have caught up with you. I don't want to sound pushy so excuse me, but this hobby is allot more forgiving if you just know whats going on in your water.


@discusguy (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/member.php?u=1283) unfortunately i'm a full time student and generally money is tight every month. i believe that as long as you keep up with water changes your tanks should be fine. i also only have fairly hardy sp in here i know im not ideal for the more finicky species because i'm not specific enough in my water parameters.



I know it is hard being a student : ) If you can, try skip the square for a week and buy a ammonia test kit ; ) Skip the square for a week in November and get PH test kit : )

[Reedfish]

I have to admit that although I do have a test kit, I rarely use it, hardly ever.
When I first bought it, soon after I got my tank, I tested on a weekly basis. But after a few months of constant readings, I didn't see the point in continueing with the testing, so I stopped.

[AquaS]

Just to clarify when I said water quality problem I did not just refer to high ammonia or nitrite levels. Since this tank has been up and running for so long I tend to lean maybe more to something like pH crashes.

If I understood correctly you mentioned that you are not close to the tank during the week. Is there maybe somebody like a cleaning lady that can unplug some equipment like a heater during this time? I have often heard about people loosing fish due to the cleaning lady unplugging fish tank equipment in order to use the plug for a vacuum cleaner and then forgetting to plug everything back in.

Another thing, how long has the lid been off? Since it has been winter can it be a possibility that the water temp dropped too low during the night and in the long term this broke down your fish's immunity system?

[windfire]

funnily enough i never visit the square its a nasty place full of jocks lol. i generally spend money on my fish or on books i love books! my personal library has over 200 books at the last count, i may be closer to 300 now, i double stack all my shelves lol. there is alot of wooden furniture (coffee table, side tables and a sideboard) in the room where the tank is, its in a sitting room its possible some of the furniture polish the maid uses may have settled in the tank when she cleaned the side board next to the tank, cant believe i didnt think of it before. daa hehe true to my blonde nature i flew out the house this morning late and forgot to take the water sample, i wonder if my ma's pond kit still has some of the ammonia test stuff left, i'll dig it out the garage tom and have a squizz.

AquaS the plugs are extremely difficult to reach, you gota climb over one of the side table and stand in a wee lil space to get to it. oh and we got one of them vacu systems that runs through the walls so i doubt very much that the plugs been turned off. lids been off about a month maybe 6 weeks so i dont think its temp, i check when i'm home and the temp is fairly steady at about 26-27.

i think i'll ask for a full battery of test kits for xmas. since we gota do the tank jouranl thingy for the aquascaping comp anyway.

[windfire]

ok now i'm confuzzled, i did a massive water change today and cleaned the filter and there swimming around was a baby pepper cory happy as you please. now wouldnt he have been the first to die if there was a bacterial infection?

[Zoom]

Probably... OR he was the strongest of the other tens that didn't make it.

I still think it's something external getting into the water and not an infection.... maybe jsut keep up with extra waterchanges for a while... or if you only go home over weekends, do bigger waterchanges.

[windfire]

i will do thanks Ashley, man was looking today after the water change, its like a ritual i like to sit and admire my handy work lol, and my tank is like empty empty, a few cories, my BN plec, 1 platy and 2-3 male guppies. its thoroughly depressing, lids on so now we see if theres any more fatalities. its amazing how much brighter the light is with a lid on.

[Zoom]

Yep, I can only imagine. I'm sitting in a similar situation... empty tank syndrome... except not through problems, by choice. I'm slowly getting rid of fish that I don't want anymore... I think we all fall into a trap of buying fish we like, not realising that it can really clutter up a tank very fast. 2 weeks ago I said goodbye to my 6 or 7 Bronze Cory's, and my 3 Rams. It It's AMAZING how empty the bottom of the tank looks now.

(If your problem has been caused by furniture polish or something getting into the water, let's hope that with the lid on it might help!)

Keep us updated please B!

[Verndog]

Um what is this thread (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?9337-Um-what-I-this)



Kill it?
I lost it on my tank...

more importantly @windfire (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/member.php?u=499) check your tank it cam from you moss!!!




Well well well! I think we found a plausable cause for your random death's....

[windfire]

not particularly the moss came from another tank, and havnt had any deaths in that one. pity woulda been nice to have a cause. i might have figured it out, my heater wasnt working, i now have two in there as a back up........ damn really peeved about it though.

[Skye01]

windfire, it's really k%k to lose fish with no real symptoms or causes. I can advise on a pretty good product that might help you out, it's Interpet Anti-Internal Bacteria. It helps to treat a whole host of things, including emaciation, dropsy, pop-eye, ulcers etc, and if you want another broad spectrum treatment I also suggest Sera Omnipur, it's also a really good product.

HTH.
Kim