Please help me Quickly - Deacon

[Fonkie]

Hi All

I have seven full grown deacons in my tank for over a year now - never a problem.

This morning the one Deacon developed a redish hump right between the eyes (Looks like a cist) as big as your pinkie nail.

How can i treat this and can it be Hole in the head disease.

Sorry no pics available

Serious answers please

F

[oscar freak]

Im sure we're gonna need more info and really a picture is worth a thousand words

[Verndog]

Try posting some parameters. Might help diagnose the problem.

[azurekoi]

Fonkie...Hmmnn - We do need a bit more info mate...

1stly: What do you feed these guys? Would you term it basic,good or excelent nutrition?
2ndly: Waterchanges...How big and how often? What is your nitrate reading like?
3rdly: Behaviorly - Could it be a "bruise" from fighting..Guessing that your fish must be nice and big by now and as we know,big cichlids have big attitudes... General way of sorting this is "lip locking" and headbutting...Could it be that your guy was a loser in a fight and there was some subcutaneous bruising that might be getting an oppertunistic bacterial infection?

Lastly - a pic - even from a Cellphone camera will make identifying this problem so much easier....

[Fonkie]

thanks Guys for all your help.

The "Cist" burst this morning and i'm very sure its hole in the head, bought some meds so we'll see how it goes from here.

F

[oscar freak]

Does HITH start with a cyst?if it is HITH theres usually an underlying cause like less than optimal water conditions and feeding plan.

[azurekoi]

Fonkie... Look at your nutrition mate... if you just feeding those cheapie Marltons Cichlid sticks,can almost assure you that this could be the underlying cause of your problem... Big fish eats lots and buying premium food for them can become quite expensive... look at buying a high protein/growth Koi food formula.. Works quite well and much cheaper that premium grade Cichlid foods... The local AquaNutro Range is not bad - contains quality fish meal,as well as Rooibos extract as a source of antioxidants..
Vary this with some of those little frozen Cocktail shrimps(Usualy under R20 for 300gr),start a wormery and feed them some Earthworms - the "steaks" of the aquatic food world... Make your own Beefheart mix and feed that(Go buy some beefheart from a local butcher that will assure you he does not get/buy beef from feedlot farming - those generally have Growth Hormone added,you dont want that...

[oscar freak]

just had a brainwave was going through the dicus feeding thread about the ox heart and and hormones
[quote=azurekoi;122109](Go buy some beefheart from a local butcher that will assure you he does not get/buy beef from feedlot farming - /quote]
not so sure i would trust what they say lol.now doesnt woolies sell only natural fed organically grown meat,i wonder would they have ox heart in their fridges,hope im not to OT

[Verndog]

Bud do you have any test kits? If you dont have they are not too pricy, get yourself a ammonia,nitrite & nitrate test kits. You need to know what these levels are. I always say to people that we feed and watch fish, thats it... Most of our hobby is actually about managing the water! If your doing the feeding and watch part only, you doing it wrong.

If you are checking your water, appologies... I just wanted to add this to what azure mentioned about nutrition. As bad water quality is a MASSIVE factor in hole in the head.

[Gareth]

HI guys
I have now seen this fish and it looks really bad, I know the roatien that Fonkie follows with his fish and I would say it is excellent, he does a 50% water change weekly and feed the fish twice a day with tetra pellets and other tetra products. I will up load a pic in a few mins so that you can have a look.

[Gareth]

Here are the pics

[Verndog]

Ouch poor fish, is there any slimy white feaces present? If I were you I'd find some metronidazole, soak his pellets in there before feeding. If he eats. If at all possible quarintine him so you dont medicate the other fish, but if thats the only option then it will have to be.

[oscar freak]

sheesh that dont lekker but it doesnt look like HITH either i could be mistaken?

[Verndog]

sheesh that dont lekker but it doesnt look like HITH either i could be mistaken?



Thinking the same thing... If it has symptoms of hexamita then it's for sure HTH.

[oscar freak]

what about columnaris(cotton wool disease)

[Gareth]

No there is no slimmy stuff presant at all, it looks like something took a big bite out of the fish... he has started metronidazole so we will see if there is any improvement at all. but it does not look like the fish wants to eat and there is also no way to quarantine him either...

[oscar freak]

one of the symptoms of columnaris according to google is "erosion of the head tissue" but im just guessing here,i think this is one for the prof.

[oscar freak]

10769this is what i understand to be HITH

picture courtesy of oscarfishlover.com

[matteffect]

I dont really know about these things but i was doing some research and found a few things.
Does the tank have any ornaments or things the fish could scratch itself badly on?
How big is the tank?
I saw on T.V and just did some research that you could dab the fish on it's injury with Mercurochrome to help fight an infection occuring. Keep out of the gills and eyes.
Are any other fish aggressive and fighting? or not?

Just a question do deacons become territorial when breeding?

Doesnt look like HITH disease.
If it is HITH maybe consider giving some plants for him to nibble on to provide extra nutrients.
Good that your treating him with metronidazole
Make sure your water quality is optimum to reduce stress.

Hope this helps.

[Gareth]

Does the tank have any ornaments or things the fish could scratch itself badly on?
How big is the tank?
No not really there are a few rocks at the bottom but nothing that can hurt him this badly and this is a big tank it is 1.7m x70cmx 100cm
yes deacons do become territorial when breeding but there are no signs that they want to breed at all so I have ruled out aggression due to the fact that the only injury is no his head and no were else.

thanks for the help so far guys, I just hope we can save this fish.

[matteffect]

Ok, maybe a fish just decided to go for something and unluckily this fish was attacked.
Is there any fish showing signs of aggression?

Has he tried dabbing the wound with Mercurochrome?

[Gareth]

Has he tried dabbing the wound with Mercurochrome?
No will see if I can get hold of that tomorrow and try to dab it then, this tank is in Fonkies Office and he has gone home already.

[matteffect]

Ok. I think Mercurochrome is available at most pharmacies. It helps the fish not get infections.

It is in a liquid form so he will need to take the fish out of the water and dab it. Hopefully doesnt stress the fish out too much. Tell him i say all the best for his fish

[azurekoi]

Fonkie That looks bad,but the fish is still saveable,dont worry...

Looks like matteffect' Google skills have led him towards something that can help... Here is how I have used Merchurochrome as part of an effective sollution to this problem:

Your Deacon currently has a severe gram negative bacterial infection - not common in Tropical fish,but quite common in their coldwater cousins - Goldfish and koi... With them it is known as "Ulcer Disease" or Hole in the body disease" - The bacteria is almost always present in any given body of water and just needs a fish with a compromised immune system(For whatever reason) to get a foothold...the following treatment I have used on hundreds of fish as a cure with great effect - some koi with holes in their bodies that I could place my fist into,are now swimming happily in their ponds...

Firstly - track down any medication that is Trichlorfon based - Anti bac by Loolilocks is a cost effective and readily available... Dose the whole tank at a rate of 5-7grams per 1000 liter in conjunction with a aquarium salt at a concentration of 3kg per 1000liter water...(the salt helps the fish to maintain its osmotic balance better - something that it struggles severly wit hnow that it's body integrity has been compromised) - Keep a watch on waterquality,as this treatment does have a negative impact on your filter bacteria... If you cant find a trichlorphon based treatment - second best would be an Acriflavine based treatment...
The reason for the medication in the water is to reduce the number of the bacterial count overall in your system... This is a highly infectious disease,any of your other fish that picks up a nick or a scratck can contract it easily...

Next,a trip to the chemist is up - buy some Clove oil,merchurochrome and Friars balsam - from your LFS,one of those el cheapo anti-ick treatments(Must contain Methelyne Blue - the Marltons one is about R15 bucks)

In a n old tub,place about 10 liters of aquarium water - add 0,5ml Clove oil(10 drops) to the tub and aerate with an airstone - Clove oil is an aneasthetic and will make the following procedure much less stressfull on the fish,and on you...
Catch fish and place in Tub - it should start loosing its equilibrium after about 2 - 3 minutes - now take him out and place on a old(Gonna get stained badly...),wet towel...

Firstly,clean the wound with a cotton bud dipped in merchurochrome - remove ALL the dead tissue,going as far as pulling any scales around the wound area... Now time to seal the wound... A few drops(3 - 5) of the anti Ick in the Friars Balsam(should turn it Green,not blue) first - then use this to cover the wound... Be VERY carefull not to get it in the fish's eyes... You will have about 2 mins for this whole procedure,so work quickly...

Now time to get him back in the tank....will be wonky as all hell from the aneasthetic - I usualy support the fish with mouth facing some flow from a pump or filter - this inrush of oxygen usualy help them to wake up much easier...

Now its monitoring the wound over the next few days , checking that the infection does not spread - I usualy do a reaplication of Merchoro a nd Friars every 2nd day... You will know when you are winning the battle when the "Redness and Rawness" of the wound starts to be replaced by milky white new tissue of the regrowing epithelial cells

Pity he aint eating - you could have added some Terramycin to his food as an internal anti biotic treatment - If he does,go beg just a few tabs from a chemist,explaining what you want to use it for and I will tell you how to use that then...

Just want to reiterate - this is a treatment I have developed over many years,and it has saved MANY fish... Not just another "My friend said" or "read it on Google" story... Using this gives the Deacon a good cance of survival... G'luck

[Verndog]

Azure, that is pretty impressive! Hopefully it works out for the best. Have u ever tried this method with smaller fish?

This post should be it's own thread and be stickied!

[azurekoi]

Have used this on fish as small as mature Platies...with sucsess... Messed around with other things like AgNO3(Silver nitrate) and Bee propolis in my treatments as well,but this basic formula works for most fish...

[matteffect]

Excellent advice Azure. You ad personal experience unlike my posts.

[Fonkie]

Hi Guys

Firstly i want to thank everyone for all their help,ideas, googling etc. Sadly my deacon is gone (literally) i cant find him anywhere. My tank is quite big so i think he died and fell to the bottom where the rest will definitely get rid of him quickly.

Nogmaals dankie vir al die hulp

F

[matteffect]

Sorry to hear the bad news fonkie =(

[Verndog]

Sorry bud, never nice losing a big fish....