View Full Version : Cardinal casualties !
Trevor Pleco
05-06-2011, 23:04
I would welcome any suggestions as to what is happening here? I have a temporary 250 lt tank set up to house my fish and a large volume of plants, while the main tank has been under repair and being cycled. The FX5 was moved to this tank so it is very well filtered, water specs - temp 25/26, PH 6.5 to 7, GH 6, but difficult to test accurately on this dam Serra test kit, KH 2 and hardly any nitrate or ammonia when tested. There is high density of plants, but still plenty of swimming space. There is no substrate in the tank, many of the plants are floating and the large swords are in plastic pots with Flourite and pfp. The tank has been running for a month now with the same fish without problems. A week ago I lost one of the larger cardinals, and over the past few days another fifteen or so have perished. The other fish, a shoal of rummy nose, many corries, bristle nose and harlequins seem to be fine. I did a 35% water change on Friday, on Saturday there were no deaths but today another five or six. The cardinals seem fine one moment then start swimming oddly and within an hour or two are dead. Many of them seem to have swollen stomachs when they die. I am wondering if the frozen food could have gone off or perhaps the flake food, which has been open for six months or so ? I would be keen on any advice asp, as have another twenty or so cardinals left.
Now that you mention it. I also do not trust the frozen foods. Whenever I have problems, it is shortly after I gave the fish a treat on this. Can it be? Or just coincidence?
I normally just let it defrost in a glass of tank water, till the block is all dissolved. Yesterday I forgot it in the glass and it was standing overnight. I threw it in this morning. No problems yet. Now, I am wondering. I read that frozen food, if not thawed, produce swim bladder problems. Can it be that we give it before it is thawed properly? Or too often?
Hi Trevor Pleco
ah Sorry mate! Sounds like you have a tad of a problem. What would you estimate the age of these guys? And if you say "hardly any nitrite/ammonia" do you mean zero, or some. . ?
Could be an intestinal issue, parasitic, but its strange that only the Cardinals are affected. My guess would be water. You say swollen stomach, but if a couple of hours dead it would be normal, gas etc. What do they look like RIGHT after death? Still swollen?
Marco
How old are the cardinals? Are they new purchase, or have you had them for a while?
Trevor Pleco
06-06-2011, 11:22
Many thanks for your input. Just an up date, no deaths this morning. Water looking brilliantly clear and good, but it has always looked fine, in the canister I have been using Purigen. Zeocarb, Clearmax and the bulk being Biomax. Put in new Purigen and Clearmax with the recent water change.
Tom. K –I’m usually pretty thorough with the defrosting and often sieve the food first through a fine net , but yep I take your point on the defrosting. In general these foods still worry me and how old they actually are or if they have always maintained a frozen state in transit..
One rummy nose also died yesterday, but up to then it was only the cardinals, I appreciate these would be the most sensitive fish.
Marco - there is no ammonia, No2 is zero and No3 is approx 15. In the beginning it was mainly the mature cardinals dieing, fish over a year old and max size up to 30mm. They seemed to have a swollen stomach before dieing but this increases once dead. Just prior to deaths they were in pristine condition displaying breeding behaviour. As I mentioned the cardinal shoal would seem absolutely fine one moment and a couple of hours later two or three are dead...
Post Mortem options - 1) the new batch of frozen food is off, stopped feeding this immediately 2) there was possibly a build up of ammonia/nitrate in the tank triggered by quite a large amount of left over baby marrow debris, which had collected under wood and places hidden from my twice a week siphons or 3) I mentioned the swords in containers, which for me is a very practical and convenient way to grow them, but I question if they could have formed dangerous anaerobic bacteria pockets ? To prevent this scenario the pots have been drilled all over the place so there are roots sticking out.
Trevor Pleco
06-06-2011, 11:27
How old are the cardinals? Are they new purchase, or have you had them for a while?
The majority, 35, were purchaced over a year ago, but I purchaced another three two weeks ago along with the Harlequin shoal of eight fish. The reason I bought just three fish was that they were left over in the LPS show tank when it was taken down and were not recent imports which I try an avoid and they looked in perfect conditon.
mydummyname
06-06-2011, 11:42
hi trevor, the one thing that i did notice is that you are running your tank at 25/26degC, from what i know about both cardinals and rummy noses (of which my knowledge isnt much ) both of these fish require warmer temperatures, the rummy noses can even handle temps of 33degC. so if you take into account that we've just gone into winter, and the fact that you are probably monitoring your temperature during the daylight hours, its is possible that the temperature is dropping to even lower than 25deg in the middle of the night, and this could cause the fish's immune systems to be dropping and making them prone to illness or just plain dying of the cold.
Here is something interesting told to me once. Not sure how true it is and if proven
but there seems to be a pattern.
2 Years back I also had neons dying for no reason I could find.
This one guy told me that its a bad idea to buy or move neons during
the winter. He says its something about the cold air when netted that kills
them eventually.
Now go check in the past and even now how many dying neons threads
there are and it always seem to be around when the cold comes.
Most of the time a bad batch of inbred neons get blamed or something.
Anyway just thought it interesting.
Not sure who have a school of neons that can with the next cold move
them to 2 tanks exposing one tanks fish to air and the other not??
Hmm... I think we may have an answer to this problem already... just need one answer: The three you purchased, were they put into QT and cleaned up before being introduced to the existing tank mates??
Reason I ask is because 90%, if not 99% of our Cardinals are wild caught, and not tank bread, and thus come with a huge amount of pathogens, bacteria and parasited. Your existing 30 odd would be fine if you bought them all together, however the introduction of the 3 new ones introduces new parasites, pathogens etc that you may find your current cardinals are not immune to, and hence have been infected.
If I recall, Marco mentioned once a few threads ago about Cardinals and how to clean them up (or any fish for that matter) to introduce them to Discus.
Vis, interesting. I moved my 10 yesterday. Will keep it in mind. But then again, there is so many other variables. My main concern is new tank, pH creeping up and ammonia spiking. Deadly combination.
I suppose if it is the cold net, there is nothing one can do about it?
were not recent imports
Zoom, will this not have been the same as QT?
Trevor Pleco
06-06-2011, 14:54
Yea, thanks Zoom could well be. Unfortunately I had no further place left to quarantine after the recent leaking tank dramas, so they were not quarantined. I did not actually need the cardinals, just felt sorry for them, actually two not three. As I mentioned they were not recent imports and had been in the LPS show tank for some time which was being taken down, they were in perfect condition, but of course they could still have carried something and the timing would make sense. That's the last time I'm being nice!
How long would you suggest guaranteeing and do folks also quarantine plants, yikes ?
Ps: I understand much more cardinals are now wild bred in the Rio Negro area as opposed to wild caught..
Zoom, will this not have been the same as QT?
You not making any sense Tom
had been in the LPS show tank for some time
but of course they could still have carried something and the timing would make sense.
You answered youself there. Just because they have been in "QT" in the LPS for many weeks / months, does not mean they are not carrying something. They are possibly carrying something that THEY are immune to, but your existing aren't.
How long would you suggest guaranteeing and do folks also quarantine plants, yikes ?
I understand much more cardinals are now wild bred in the Rio Negro
I believe Marco did a very good write up on QT. I don't think the cardinals is as much of a QT as it is in actual fact a clean up. Because they are in the wild, even wild bred (which happens in big outside ponds / dams and not in tanks). I know that people always want to mix cardinals with Discus because it's one of the few tetras that can take the temps that discus require... but there is a very strict clean up procedure that needs to be done when buying cardinals.
Trevor Pleco
06-06-2011, 15:34
While we are on the subject of cardinals, just to say I was initially opposed to keeping cardinals with the idea of them being wild caught, hence my aversion to the marine hobby, however my attitude changed when I began to find out more about Project Piaba (slogan: "Buy a Fish, Save a Tree") and its merits. For those interested Google Project Piaba and Cardinals.
Just wish I new where our cardinals were imported from..
Thanks Ashley, will try and look up Marco's QT post ...
many weeks / months, does not mean they are not carrying something. They are possibly carrying something that THEY are immune to, but your existing aren't.
My point is, if that does not help, how is the QT in your home going to be different? They will still carry it, as they are immune.
Trevor Pleco
06-06-2011, 18:02
link as discussed, interesting read -
http://projectpiaba.wordpress.com/the-fishery/
My point is, if that does not help, how is the QT in your home going to be different? They will still carry it, as they are immune.
as i said in previous post, you not realy qt them, you cleaning them up. Marco did a nice write up on cleaning them up. You use different medication to kll all the nasties, not just qt them to check them out. This is especially essential with fish that are wild caught, like cardinals. You use a qt tank, but you actually medicating them to clean them up.
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Zoom
Why did you not say so in the first place?
hehe
Zoom
Why did you not say so in the first place?
hehe
sorry, said it in my mind
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Trevor Pleco
06-06-2011, 23:19
Ok settle down both of you immediately, I'll be sure to give them a medicated dip in future, the fish that is !
Thanks for your suggestions.
Hey Marco, wont you let me have that QT link please.. ?
Hi Trevor Pleco
I dont think lack of QT is the problem here. I might be wrong, its been ages since I had Cardinals. From memory its a tough job just to keep them alive the first few weeks, and after that they always remain susceptible to bad water and bacteria.
Please do not do the Qt procedure I wrote on cardinals. All you need to do with them in QT is deworm and clean their gills. They might carry bacteria but that can be sorted by the "one fish to their tank" priciple in which you move a fish from your existing colony to their QT facility for two to three weeks to make sure they dont pass anything on.
Cardinals are bred captively know, even in Asia, but I doubt any of those ever make it to South Africa. I could be wrong here. The ones bred in the Amazon is also "arguably" captive bred. I think I should go there, cordon off a part of the amazon that contains Heckel Discus, and call the offspring "captive Bred" - I could become famous!!!
No, they are bred there in natural conditions in captive dams and harvested as if wild caught, so in essence they are wild.
Problem with these guys is that they really really HATE dirty water, low temperature, and any form of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. They swim in Distilled water in the wild so its difficult replicating that in aquaria. I'm sorry for your loss Trevor, I wish I had more info for you, but I suggest keep up the water changes and see if this improves things. If so. . .you have sort of figured out the reason. If however they keep dying, you have a parasite, most probably intestinal. If so post back here then we find a solution.
Kind Regards
Marco
(PS - Trevor Pleco - I'm sending those worms back to you! If I have to send out another culture it will drive me insane! Its all your fault so take them back! hahahaha!)
They might carry bacteria but that can be sorted by the "one fish to their tank" priciple in which you move a fish from your existing colony to their QT facility for two to three weeks to make sure they dont pass anything on.
Aah, that makes sense! The one you catch first is the volunteer!
Do not worry Trevor Pleco, we are chill!
Trevor Pleco
07-06-2011, 00:25
Many thanks Marco, always good to do the mid-night beat with you ! No further deaths today so holding thumbs ! Need to get that deworm and gill clean recipe from you at some point. Will send you a Pm on the planned trip !
Hey, you mentioned those dam worms, well I've got news for your bud, you might have heard that MWPS has now introduced strict QT measures, and again it's the "one worm to their tub" principle in which you move a worm from your existing culture to the QT facility for two to three weeks to make sure they dont pass anything on. Good luck !
"one worm to their tub" principle in which you move a worm from your existing culture to the QT facility for two to three weeks to make sure they dont pass anything on. Good luck !
how the heck do you determine that lonely worm after 2 weeks
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Trevor Pleco
07-06-2011, 18:51
how the heck do you determine that lonely worm after 2 weeks
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That’s a question Marco can better answer, but I guess it's not to dissimilar to that crazy other game, with planting single strands of Hair Grass with tweezes !
How is the Cardinals doing?
That’s a question Marco can better answer, but I guess it's not to dissimilar to that crazy other game, with planting single strands of Hair Grass with tweezes !
now planting grass with tweezers is something i can, and frequently do, do.
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Trevor Pleco
07-06-2011, 21:11
now planting grass with tweezers is something i can, and frequently do, do.
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Ok to test you further .. how about planting individual HC shoots/cuttings at the bottom of a nearly full 700mm high tank… thank the almighty for my +2s, goggles, snorkel and a bit of fishy madness...
Back to my cardinals or whats left with them, Tom, found another three this afternoon. If you could see the sparkling clarity of my tank, not usually seen in my tanks after 40 years of fish keeping, I don’t believe it’s the water, but would go for Zoom’s introduced pathogen theory or perhaps Marco's intestinal parasite. All other fish are 100s.
Has been a sad week, those beauties were top quality and max size, having been spoilt with a variety of frozen foods on a daily basis.
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