View Full Version : Rule amendment
I do not do this in order to stir the pot, but think the forum rules need a revision.
Specifically the discussion of blacklisted species. I have read as much of the ECT act (2005) as I can bare to read and have not yet found anything to say that the discussion of illicit items is illegal. Trading or discussing in them is probably illegal.
This is probably not a great example but I'm pretty sure that there are tons of websites discussing drugs, the good the bad and the very ugly, they are illegal and they are being discussed which is totally fine.
Maybe some of the gardening gurus can check the local gardening websites and see what they are allowed to discuss there, as I'm pretty sure black listed plants would be mentioned daily.
Discussion is not a bad thing it is just the sharing and acquisition of knowledge between people. Obviously if the knowledge is how to obtain illegal plants/fish etc then there is a problem and the moderators can step in.
On a weekly basis I have seen posts deleted/edited and users warned that they will be banned for discussing shrimp. I have just read the rules and regulations and it seems the discussion of snails is deemed illegal too, this make absolutely no sense at all. They are illegal yes, but what if I want to discuss what snails I have and what I can do to remove them. What I am saying is that a blanket ban on a topic might actually might be doing more harm than good.
How do other members feel? A relaxation of the rules? What will probably happen is that there will be one or two threads discussing shrimp and that will be it, people will be informed on the pros and cons and where they stand with regards to the legislation.
Gregorian
19-05-2011, 20:57
My vote for this one.
You got my vote too Dougbb.
Rory My vote too. My thread is a good example... It was infact about the blacklist but was closed. More than likely, this one will also be closed : ) Sorry doug!
This will probably be deleted like the one senior members started.
But well put, I have also been trying to find this out to no avail. 8(
It would help us all if we could discuss these and find out why they are blacklisted etc. How to stop them.
discusguy yeah it was the closure of your thread that bugged me enough to start this one. Hopefully Rory will read this and give it some thought, maybe we can have a discussion around this rather than closing my thread?
Ok, just to try and clear things up....
You can discuss BL species, but the problem is more when they are discussed in the context of keeping them in our aquariums. The reason we do not allow such threads is that TASA does not want to, and will not, be involved in any way, with encouraging illegal activity.
The problem which usually results in a thread being deleted, or heavily moderated, is that sooner or later in a thread that started out with good intent, ends in some one boasting about their BL species, or someone starts slamming the Mods for 'doing their job' by enforcing the rules of which you all agreed to abide to when signing up, and then proceed to tell us that we 'throw our weight around, and abuse our power' etc, etc!
As for snails, we have already covered recently that they will be treated as any other BL species, and if anyone is actively 'looking' for snails of any type, we will step in, but we also realise that pretty much everybody (even the most diligent of fish keepers) will have some form of snail infestation at some point. For this reason, we have no issue with someone posting, and asking for help as to how to dispose or irradicate their snails, or for that matter any other BL species.
So, to sum up, talk as much as you like about BL species, but any mention of the keeping/breeding/trading/selling/freebees and we will step in.
Hope that clears things up?
Regards
G!
If it means nobody will go to jail or get in trouble in any way, I can't see why they shouldn't be relaxed.
Hope that clears things up?
And what if a tank pic is posted with pictures of BL'ed species? Then they confirm that they have a BL'ed species in their tank.
What was the reason behind the closure of the thread entitled "Cherry Shrimps"? No-one mentioned they kept them, was trying to sell them,trade them, etc, they were just discussing them.
So, to sum up, talk as much as you like about BL species, but any mention of the keeping/breeding/trading/selling/freebees and we will step in.
Hope that clears things up?
Regards
G!
Versus
" And unfortunately until it does materialize, we cannot discuss them on the open forum."
- That is the final post in the thread "Cherry Shrimp" started by discusguy...
If a pic shows a BL species, then the pic will be removed.
I will look into the Cherry Shrimp Thread, but there was a post asking where to get them, although this was later re-edited.
As I said earlier though, as soon as you mention something on the BL, the same thing happens time and time again. Either someone asks where to get, or that they have some, or people start getting angry and throwing tantrums, some so large that it has resulted in their banning from the site.
We are mostly all responsible adults here, and should act as such. If there are issues, rather than rant on open forum, PM one or all of the Mods. We will discuss things happily via PM, if we are approached in the right manner.
Another thing to consider is that sometimes a thread is deleted/closed/moderated when another user(s) reports such a thread. Some people on this forum do not like to see constant threads on BL species coming up. Mainly because it always leads down the same disruptive road, and also because of the legal aspect, but sometimes for other reasons.
Regards
G!
Versus
" And unfortunately until it does materialize, we cannot discuss them on the open forum."
- That is the final post in the thread "Cherry Shrimp" started by discusguy...
As I say, I will look into this threads closure. I believe though that this was one such reported thread.
Regards
G!
Big G thanks for giving it thought and giving some explanation. A forum is nothing without its members and we need democracy and transparency...viva tropicalaquarium viva! Amandla!....Awethu.....this post is tongue in cheek in case someone takes it the wrong way, election fever and all ;)
Well to be perfectly honest as I said to zoom. Rules are rules, I am not a mod... Even if I am not happy with certain policies Ill just have to stick to them if I intend on staying... Who knows, maybe Ill buy the forum one day ; ) Then Ill change that rule...
DesertConvert
20-05-2011, 09:27
I agree 100% that certain discussions on aspects of BL species should not be allowed (eg. trading - buying, selling, swapping, giving away), but we shouldn't limit information flow. I joined TASA to LEARN - question and discuss. Yes, there is a blacklist and I support it 100% - I LOVE our environment and the protection thereof - but a blanket censorship has never done any good. TASA is my forum of choice because it is local. We are all in the same boat and many have the same questions. Yes, I can Google (I do it all day long) for info on BL species, but I would prefer to remain here, and not move my browsing elsewhere. I don't have nearly enough experience in fish keeping to even identify a BL fish in a LPS, but maybe somebody else would. Take a photo & report/question it here. If it is confirmed as BL we can aid in reporting it to the authorities, who can then maybe track down the source? I'm rambling, but that is just an idea. Maybe a BL section with photos of what these fish look like, so that I don't inadvertantly buy a BL species from a dodgy LPS? I don't have time to find pics of every BL on the list, but together we could. Anyway, I abide by the forum rules ... just think TASA should be open for such discussions.
Well seeing that this thread is still open, I would like to add my opinion to this.
I am not the type of person to start a fight, so no one must take this the wrong way. I fully agree will all that was said. YES the mod’s are correct when saying that we all agreed with the rules before signing up, so that I do understand.
But the thing is, that I have seen on a few Mod’s post pics that do contain some sort of a BL (plant,fish,snail….), but that never gets deleted?? I will not name the Mod, as that’s not my style!!
We as TASA members should start a “poll” on “do you have a BL species in your tank” and be 100% honest, I think our end figure will be 80-90% YES.
And to take it even further, I don’t think anyone here can say, that they have never given a BL plant or fish to a friend? Or a few snails to someone? I have a lot of BL plants that I got from one of the members on APSA, they look flippen awesome, and I have given some to a few of our own members, and EVEN to a sponsor, without mentioning it on TASA!
I think by adding a section to our site, where we are allowed to mention our BL species, and put some sort of a “block” on it, that if you do not have i.e. 50 post count, you can’t enter it?
Well hope I did not step on some toes…
Vez
Hi Guys
I am keen to add a new section to the site specifically for the discussion of blacklist species, and all threads/posts mentioning them would be moved there. It would basically require a specific set of rules and mostly a disclaimer. It's a tough line to walk as the blacklist is law however it's something we probably spend more time/effort enforcing than the govt does. Also it rules out half the things found in pretty much every single LFS.
I'll add a poll to this thread however you're welcome to give any feedback on the idea or maybe additional poll options here.
So, Rory, this going to democracy? Mob rule. If the mob wants it, they get it! Never mind right or wrong. I voted for a new section, btw.
i also voted for a "Open BL Section"!
I think the thing that everyone keeps forgetting is that we have not allowed such discussion in an attempt to try and protect both TASA and the users firstly, from breaking the law, which we do not want to encourage, and secondly to help avoid a situation were you are prosecuted for an 'admission of guilt' on open forum.
I'm happy to have a BL section, but as Rory stated above, there will be a strong disclaimer, so should any of you get into a legal situation, TASA will not be drawn into it, as you have all been warned and agreed that you take full responsibility for any such posting and situations arising from such threads/postings. I'm sure there would also be a number of other 'disclaimers' that you will have to agree to in order to have such a section? I'm no lawyer, so I'll leave that to the guys who are?
I'm sure that all of us have had BL species at some point? Thats all part and parcel of growing into this hobby... The LFS has a cool looking fish, sells it to you, you get home and find its a BL fish that has just devoured your entire tank, and get rid of it, and start again. I personally have no problem with 'keepers' in that situation. Its when people actively seek and keep such species deliberately where I have a problem, but then I have the same issue with people downloading illegal music, or copying CD's etc. I guess its all down to each person own sense of morality? But at the end of the day, I will always encourage people to stay within the bounds of the law. The law is there for a reason. Even when you don't know the reason why!
Regards
G!
So, Rory, this going to democracy? Mob rule. If the mob wants it, they get it! Never mind right or wrong. I voted for a new section, btw.
It's like a democracy where if you vote for the wrong party you'll get banned :p
Hi All
I think it would be good discussing BL things but not keeping them, trading etc.
I would like to see someone's opinion about some of the BL species though, like I
think shrimp are useless water cockroaches etc.
Also why you think they should remain blacklisted because of there behavior or impact.
This can be educational and broaden everyone knowledge about our sensitive environment.
But then again why talk about something you can't keep. Why expose the fact
that you have BL species and get yourself into trouble?
I like talking about the things I keep and showing them of to other enthusiast.
So I am in two minds about this.
Gerhard
Trading is definitely out. Discussion only.
With ALL respect said Big G.
Have you ever received a speeding fine? If so, YOU broke the law, and this goes for everyone, we are so stuck on the law side of FISH, that we forget about all the other things that we do, that break the law!!! If you smoke and gooi your stompie out the car window? The list is endless!
Please don’t take it as a fight.
Vez
With ALL respect said Big G.
Have you ever received a speeding fine? If so, YOU broke the law, and this goes for everyone, we are so stuck on the law side of FISH, that we forget about all the other things that we do, that break the law!!! If you smoke and gooi your stompie out the car window? The list is endless!
Please don’t take it as a fight.
Vez
I won't take it as a fight, but I know what you are saying, and I agree. I do indeed try my best to knowingly stick within the law on all counts. I have been done for speeding once before, and funnily enough, that was on a TASA outing. I didn't say I had never broke the law, and in fact have done some ppretty stupid things in the past, but I now try to abide to it as fully as I can.
So, I do not just concentrate on the fish side of the law, but on everything from not speeding, to not sticking my Butt out the window, to not copying that CD or DVD I borrowed, and so on.
As I said though, I guess its all down to most peoples own morality? I would consider hedging a bet that some of those people who knowingly keep BL species are also the same people with illegal downloads of music, and sit in the corner smoking Pot too?`
Regards
G!
thanks for taking it in the right light!
i know that its not the right thing to do, as i think the trade has a few holes in it, all i wish to get out of this site, is to know that if some dude gives me something, and i post it on TASA, i can get the help on the species, and not go on "holiday"
at the end of the day, we must take a look at the results of the votes, as this will show us what "we" want.
thats all from my side.
Vez
Ok... time for Hitman to step up to the interogation table...
I closed the Cherry shrimp thread. Did I agree on closing it? NO. Did I feel that this thread needed to be closed. NO. Was the thread reported, YES. Did the member who reported it even bother to read what the thread was about, I seriously doubt it.
Let me bring you members up to date...
A few weeks ago the mod team had a heated debate about whether we are going to interpret the rule:
Any species on the South African black list (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?t=78) are not allowed to be discussed in the context of keeping them in aquaria. TASA will endeavour to keep an updated black list on the site for reference.
Some mods interpreted "Keeping" meaning what do I need in order to keep this alive, some mods interpreted this as an overall keeping- meaning any discussion of BL species was therefore prohibited. The decision was then made to remove all BL posts, however no announcement of this was made to the members.
I agree 100% that discussion BL species should be allowed. However, we then need to agree that if you ask for a BL species, you will be banned. If you start slating the government for their lack of informing the publick blah blah humbug, you will be banned. The discussion of BL will be prohibitted within very strict boundaries, not only to protect the forum, but to protect you! And it YOU are going to be reporting a BL thread (that is in fact a legit thread) you will be banned to.
There, I've had my say... I've had my say behind the scenes with the other mods...
Rory, please make your decision, make your announcement, and let's move on. This whole BL thing is getting really tiring and draining the forum.
Oh, and to the member who mentioned BL species in pics... I don't recall ANY mod EVER removing a picture of a tank that shows a BL species?? My tank has BL plants in... and I show it all the time. But because I am not selling it, surely I am within the rules of the forum??
I read such an interesting article last night, on why democracy is evil. What a coincidence! I wake up this morning to see a practical example in action. Two thirds vote for the wrong thing, because we want it. We will find all sorts of reasons to justify it, to ourselves and to our mates. This is a lovely example proving that we as a human race, is not capable of ruling ourselves. Without having read the article, my comments here will sound trivial, I know. So I will shut up now, I promise I will try! Let the people rule...
Ok guys, This is now turning into another thread of complaining...
Take it up via PM....
Please keep this on topic (and polite).... We are discussing whether or not we should allow a section for the discussion of BL species.
Regards
G!
First of all Tom, this is who I am, I will not back down from anything, and when someone thinks they are better than the rest, I will open my mouth.
I really do like spending time on TASA, as most can see, my tanks have improved since I found TASA. And I have even started to share my knowledge gained from TASA to some of my friends and family.
Sorry for going all out on this one Big G.
So back to the topic.
Sorry for going all out on this one Big G.
So back to the topic.
Ok, just remember to keep it off forum, and PM such issues direct to Mods.
Regards
G!
However, we then need to agree that if you ask for a BL species, you will be banned.
How about "we ... agree that if you knowingly ask for a BL species, you will be banned"?
Innocent until proven guilty?
I appreciate and understand that anything that can be "used against you in a court of law" must be avoided and I'd like to thank the mods for looking out for me in that way.
However, it sometimes comes across as the discipline of a very strict parent where the child doesn't understand the danger because she doesn't even know it exists - and then you end up with a pregnant teenager :rolleyes: gee, how did that happen.
I would like to be educated so that I don't end up with BLs in my tank unintentionally.
Ok... time for Hitman to step up to the interogation table...
I closed the Cherry shrimp thread. Did I agree on closing it? NO. Did I feel that this thread needed to be closed. NO. Was the thread reported, YES. Did the member who reported it even bother to read what the thread was about, I seriously doubt it.
Let me bring you members up to date...
A few weeks ago the mod team had a heated debate about whether we are going to interpret the rule:
http://purevb4.tropicalaquarium.co.za/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Rory http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?p=2680#post2680)
Any species on the South African black list (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?t=78) are not allowed to be discussed in the context of keeping them in aquaria. TASA will endeavour to keep an updated black list on the site for reference.
Some mods interpreted "Keeping" meaning what do I need in order to keep this alive, some mods interpreted this as an overall keeping- meaning any discussion of BL species was therefore prohibited. The decision was then made to remove all BL posts, however no announcement of this was made to the members.
I agree 100% that discussion BL species should be allowed. However, we then need to agree that if you ask for a BL species, you will be banned. If you start slating the government for their lack of informing the publick blah blah humbug, you will be banned. The discussion of BL will be prohibitted within very strict boundaries, not only to protect the forum, but to protect you! And it YOU are going to be reporting a BL thread (that is in fact a legit thread) you will be banned to.
There, I've had my say... I've had my say behind the scenes with the other mods...
@Rory (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/member.php?u=1), please make your decision, make your announcement, and let's move on. This whole BL thing is getting really tiring and draining the forum.
Oh, and to the member who mentioned BL species in pics... I don't recall ANY mod EVER removing a picture of a tank that shows a BL species?? My tank has BL plants in... and I show it all the time. But because I am not selling it, surely I am within the rules of the forum??
I would 150% agree with zooms post.
I read such an interesting article last night, on why democracy is evil. What a coincidence! I wake up this morning to see a practical example in action. Two thirds vote for the wrong thing, because we want it. We will find all sorts of reasons to justify it, to ourselves and to our mates. This is a lovely example proving that we as a human race, is not capable of ruling ourselves. Without having read the article, my comments here will sound trivial, I know. So I will shut up now, I promise I will try! Let the people rule...
Bud I see what you saying, but we not talking about the 10 commandments here. It's just a BL. Which I am all for might I add.
FishRMan
20-05-2011, 14:49
How can you say you are voting for the wrong thing? How would you define what is right and wrong? Sorry @Tom.K (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/member.php?u=1186) but I cant agree that we are voting for the wrong thing here there is no way to define what right or wrong is in this case
wearsbunnyslippers
20-05-2011, 15:26
i personally have never understood the strictness of TASA and it's draconian attitude towards the blacklist...
how can an anonymous, online forum be held in any way liable or responsible for what people do in the privacy of their own homes. all that is needed on TASA is a list of the blacklisted species and a disclaimer saying that TASA in no ways supports or condones the swapping, trading, or procuring of any of the blacklisted species due to it being illegal, and besides, do you really think that members don't use TASA's PM functionality to swap, trade and buy illegal, blacklisted species, so in the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve, TASA is still empowering people to break the law.
i think a section with a disclaimer is all that is required, and maybe as mentioned a rule stating if you publicly ask for blacklisted species knowing it is blacklisted you will be banned.
if members want to post pictures of their tanks for all to see containing blacklisted species, it is their responsibility not TASA's. i don't see how deleting the pic or the thread in anyway stops the member from having these in their tanks anyway. and of all the holier than thou members that condemn blacklisted species publicly, i bet more than a couple of them have at least one blacklisted species either knowingly or unknowingly and just don't post pictures of them. so what is not being able to discuss them helping at the end of the day...
there is nothing better than open discussion to inform and educate people. why is there a blacklist in the first place? just because a certain species is not on the current blacklist doesn't make it any less invasive than others that are, and non blacklisted species should be treated exactly the same as blacklisted ones when it comes to disposal, etc. nothing should ever be flushed down the toilet, the sink, the drains etc. whether it is blacklisted or not, this is a sure fire way to get species added to the blacklist, nevermind getting ones removed.. if the blacklist helps generate awareness like this then it is doing its job, but by not allowing people to discuss anything relating to the blacklist, you are keeping people ignorant and again achieving the exact opposite of what you set out to.
my 2c. keep the change :P
Gregorian
20-05-2011, 15:56
Bought some Rainbow cichlids from a LFS and was banned for a week. Gave them away on the end, but still cost me money.
Wow go to varsity to for a day and boom! Glad this has sparked some action and appreciate the mods and members giving their view points! Hopefully something good come of it then I can stop buying so much cheese...to go with all the whine ;)
The Hitman
20-05-2011, 16:37
Ok, I wanna change my vote. After reading all the post more or less. I wanted to say alot of things like the speeding, ability to reasearch drug making, bom making etc on the net, but they have more or less been covered. I do however feel that If someone mentions somthing that is black listed and doesnt know, then they should be made aware of it and not ostracized. Is your license taken away because you speed??? Maybe once the users are made aware of they could possibly take up the conversation via email, hence all ties with TASA and the blacklisted species discussion is lost
I think ultimately we need to find a balance that works for TASA! What works for APSA or MASA may not necessarily work for us, and I think it's a bit unfair to say that what works for another forum will work here. The dynamics are just very different.
The mods have left this thread open purely because we need to find out where to take this BL.
I agree with everyone's comments thus far (who have contributed constructively), but to try and impliment all your guys suggestions into one "ruling" would be impossible.
Let me play completely open cards here: (Mod's please correct me if I am wrong)
The moderators agree that the discussion of BL species needs to be encouraged, or allowed in order to create a better awareness, and / or better understanding. We understand that "newbies" are going to cause trouble in certain instances, and generally speaking, the mod team have taken it lightly, or stepped easier with these guys. We take an extremely hard stance on someone who is fully aware of the blacklist, and tries to sell, or request.
So let's put a scenario / option together:
Rory Big G Zebra Pleco Gert Combrink
I'm putting this up on the forum for all to see
A Blacklist subforum is opened, with rules saying that this section is for the DISCUSSION of Blacklisted Species. No requesting. No Selling. No slating government officials for not doing their jobs. No naming/shaming LPS for keeping them. A SIMPLE Blacklist subforum where we may discuss the species to better understand them. ALL threads & Posts in this subforum need to be moderated before. (Members, this means a Mod will have to approve the thread/post before it get's displayed)
ALL members are kicked out TASA, and have to re-log in, and a splash screen comes up giving them the rules, the run down, and they have to agree to it. If they don't, they can't log in. Basically it'll be a disclaimer saying what WearsBunnySlippers advised earlier.
Members are notified that selling/requesting BL species will result in an immediete 1 month ban. Second problem will be permanent. We will obviously have to discuss amongst each other on the banning, because we will know who's new and is ignorant.
Reporting of BL threads can ONLY be accepted is the person is trying to sell/request/give away BL items.
Gert Combrink
20-05-2011, 19:25
Okay, time for my 2 cents...
We spend more time on the Blacklist and - species than the "govermint".
I am fully for the idea of a "Blacklisted section" where we can discuss these species, as in the rules of this forum - no trading/giving away/ asking for etc.
You all made very valuable statements/comments/arguments and I thank you all for your input. I'm sure Rory and the Mod team appreciate it.
Do you want to know why I don't post pic's on this forum??
I don't know how! - got you there!
Let's do it!
This has been a long time coming.
My biggest problem has always been the "policing" of the BL by moderators and,I'll say it again,normal users.If the moderators aren't completely comfortable in the positive identification of every blacklisted plant and fish,then how can the rules be enforced?Then it's left to the users to point out the infringements,which in turn causes all sorts of tension.And even the users aren't all that clued-up on the subject.
And how many times has blacklisted sp. gone by unnoticed,discussed how to keep or propagate?Which species am I talking about?How about anubia plants,Scientific name Anubias barteri - blacklisted.How many times has advise been given on how to tie it to wood,don't bury the rhizome,etc.?
What of hair grass?Scientific name Eleocharis acicularis and Eleocharis parvula - blacklisted.I personally posted a "How to....." on hair grass and it all went by unnoticed.
If the whole list can't be enforced equally and correctly then how can we ban or delete any posts or threads?If some are discussed then all should be discussed.
Think on it.
Rudi....
In defense... not all Anubia is BL. I agree that 90% of anubias that most of us have in out tanks is one of the BL forms, but not all of them are BL. Same as Vallis. Someone is right now GIVING away vallis. At no point in the thread is there any mention of what type of vallis it is. Some forms of Vallis is BL, but we do not know if this Vallis is BL or or not because this member does not give the scientific name. Let's be real here... we all know what vallis looks like, and do we care what the scientific name is??? YET SOME MEMBER STILL feels it their right to REPORT that post to us with a comment "You mod's do know that some Vallis is BL."
My comment to you: "GROW UP DUDE/ETTE" (Not you Rudi.. the person who reported the post)
TroyFish
21-05-2011, 00:01
What of hair grass?
I must admit, i usually go through the BL to check if i indeed keep any....cant believe i missed this one. 1st time for me that this has been brought up.
but we do not know if this Vallis is BL or or not
IMO i don't think most people know the difference from the Bl one and the legal ones. Sometimes i can be pretty straight forward however not always. The Vallisneria gigantea grows massive (in length) but so can the legal ones? Depending on the condition they grown in?
"You mod's do know that some Vallis is BL."
Sorry Zoom....:embarrest::p
One thing i have noticed in the past few months is that generally when these types of
threads are started new members jump in not knowing the rules/law about keeping BL species resulting in other members starting arguments, which could end some members visiting the TASA's 'holiday' lodge lol. But yeah...
Generally when i see a thread thats got to do with the BL i just log off because of that.
At least this thread started off calm, relaxed and friendly, but give it time, won't end well
Henk Hugo
21-05-2011, 07:15
I have been watching this thread develop with some interest. When Rory and I initially setup the forum, we implemented the rule to protect both the forum members and ourselves. Members of MCM and DEA Enforcement regularly visit the local forums and they use data gathered on forums in various ways.
Some of the Cape Town members will remember the shop in the Northern Suburbs that was raided a few times and eventually closed down. I have it on good authority that two of these raids were as a direct result of info on one of the local forums. One of the members on MASA is currently fighting a trumped up charge under the Marine Resources Protection Act because he was breeding albino clown fish in his garage. Turns out a lot of the info MCM and co got came from MASA. He was arrested and spent the afternoon in the Bothasig cells.
Every time someone does something illegal/stupid DEA and co sits back and says “see! We told you so!” and a new regulation is made that makes it more difficult for the rest of us. Every time some idiot goes and dumps the content of his goldfish/koi pond in a dam the authorities wants to ban them. I am not sure how many of you are aware, but the initial draft of the new blacklists had goldfish and koi on them.
Some of the species on the current blacklists makes no sense at all! Let us look at the plant black list. It is a combination of a list from Hawaii and Singapore. It simply does not make sense. The fish list is a little more complex. Some of the species on the list are there for a very valid reason i.e. they are extremely invasive e.g., snakeheads, Mozambique tilapia etc. and other are on there because they are protected/native species. The blanket ban on freshwater crustaceans is also heavy handed and has been rectified with the new lists. Freshwater crayfish are extremely invasive whereas the shrimps have a rather poor survival rate. A friend of mine in Europe imported a shipment of shrimps from Singapore and had a DOA of 60% on the box.
I also think part of the problem on TASA is that some of the mods can’t tell a molly from a goldfish. They have no idea of scientific names vs. common names on either plants nor fish. Neither do they know the blacklists and can’t tell by simply reading a post of the fish/plant in the thread is on the list or not. This makes it extremely difficult to enforce the blacklist rule.
Personally I think Rory needs to get some legal advice to find out exactly where the owners/mods risk/responsibility starts and ends with a forum where blacklisted species gets discussed. I also think all new members should be redirected to the blacklists before they are even allowed to post their “Hi I’m new” thread. That way no one can say they didn’t know.
Remember guys – ignorance of the law is no excuse.
My 30 000000 zim cents on the matter.
Henk
"GROW UP DUDE/ETTE"
Amen... No one likes a tattle tale.
I cant see how how a forum with a disclaimer could have any legal implications to any BL raides.
Marine Resources Protection Act because he was breeding albino clown fish in his garage.
The vital point you missed here is that the problem was not breeding clown fish in his garage.... The problem was the fact that there was a commercial agreement in place. No one on TASA is going to be selling anything on BL... TASA is not opening a for sale thread.
I for one am not even bothered on whether a special forum gets opened. All I want is for everyone to stop being so anal... Like when I open a informative thread about cherry shrimps a member reports me to the mods? My thread was asking a question about the BL people? Come on, we have passed the pre-school stage... We all grown ups here(well, some of us atleast)
Zoom and the mods,my comments are not meant to put you guys in a bad light.It would be unfair to expect the mods to be able to I.D all the blacklisted species.It only shows how fallible the "no discussion" rule is.
The fact that both the plants I mentioned is available from the LFS makes it more difficult.
Talking about crime is not a crime, is it?
Unless you are talking about robbing a bank :)
On a side note Rudi , I wonder what idiot put anubias on the list anyway
or do I not know something about anubias making me the idiot :)
FishRMan
21-05-2011, 12:23
Zoom I dont think every post put into the BL section could be moderated surely you guys as Mods dont have that sort of time? Plus if a thread not complying with the rules does get posted just think how excited the tattle tales will get that they can report it:p
Henk Hugo
21-05-2011, 13:09
The vital point you missed here is that the problem was not breeding clown fish in his garage.... The problem was the fact that there was a commercial agreement in place.
Not correct - it was just a memo of understanding that he wont offer it to anyone else should he want to sell it.
which was seen as a commercial agreement by DAT
Henk Hugo
21-05-2011, 14:51
Which in terms of law it is not...
Ah I see your point. So they still have a case against him for breeding ornamental fish?
Henk Hugo
21-05-2011, 14:58
Not in terms of the Marine Living Resources act.
One of the members on MASA is currently fighting a trumped up charge under the Marine Resources Protection Act because he was breeding albino clown fish in his garage. Turns out a lot of the info MCM and co got came from MASA. He was arrested and spent the afternoon in the Bothasig cells.
Henk Hugo... you are just REINFORCING the members request here to be allowed to discuss BL species. We are NOT by any means talking about breeding, selling, requesting... The "box" (translate box to afrikaans) in MASA was not discussing the BL fish of Albino clown fish... he was in fact keeping and breeding them. He was in fact performing an illegal action. He deserves every book of the law thrown at him, with his pants down in jail. I'm sorry Henk... scaring me with stories of this guy in MASA who is in trouble just doesn't cut it... he was in fact breaking the law... PERIOD!
Let's be human here... if we are educated and are given the freedom to discuss the BL... meaning... "Hey guys, I see that fish-X is on the BL... why is that?" Some members can do research, and give a reason why... then we are all a little wiser and will care more for our environment... because we understand better.
Oh.. and let's just be real here... what court in SA is going to imprison you, or give you a R10,000.00 fine because you are trying to find out more information on the Jewel Cichlid?? If you truely are interested in finding information, you will have nothing to hide... meaning, when the authorities do ever catch you asking about the JC, and come inspect your premisis, you have nothing to show/hide.
It only shows how fallible the "no discussion" rule is.
EXACTLE
Zoom I dont think every post put into the BL section could be moderated surely you guys as Mods dont have that sort of time?
Trust me... that sub-forum won't be too busy. It will obviously start off very busy... but I can tell you that 90% of the time there is a mod online. Approving is simply a matter of reading the post and clicking a button. And let's be honest here FishRMan... we discussing INFORMATION on Blacklist species... what's the rush to get that information??? It's not like you have a sick fish that needs answers chop-chop. If you ask about a BL species and it takes 6 hours before it is put onto the public forum, who cares?
Henk Hugo
21-05-2011, 16:38
Ash please make sure of your facts before you make such accusations. The Marine Living Resources Act was written to protect native species such as abalone, kreef, tuna etc. Hence i reffered to it as trumped up charges. When he told the station commander that you can buy said fish, which was imported legally, in a pet store he was released as the SAPS realised there's a possibility for an unlawful arrest complaint. What MCM is saying is that you need to do an EIA and get a permit to breed any fish. TASA members breeding guppies,angels, discus etc are in violation of the Marine Living Resources act according to MCM.
I strongly suggest that moderators take the time to study the various acts that could possibly come into play before making an decision. Remember to study various verdicts in court cases relating to the acts as it might change the penalties etc set out in the acts. These include the Marine Living Resources Act (it seems to be one they are trying to enforce), the Bio Diversity Act, The Forestry Act, the Agricultural Pests Act etc.
I don't particularly care if there is a section where blacklisted species are discussed as long as the rules are being enforced and at the moment the current moderation team can't enforce the rules as they can't even ID the illegal animals/plants members are offering for sale/swop on the forum.
Henk, I don't see how discussing black listed species will break any laws in any act. This is a free country, we are free to information and free to discuss it. If natcon really wants to waste there time and slap me on the hand for keeping valis then they welcome too. If they feel like making bust they can walk in to a lps and make one. They don't have to browse local forums or act like the CIA .
butcherman
21-05-2011, 17:51
Sorry discusguy, I'm with Henk on this one. The law is the law.
If we start a black list section, why dont we start a section on how to steal cars?
technically its not stealing so its not agiainst the Law?
But it teaches the wrong thing. same as discussing blacklisted items it is also teaching the worng thing.
We should focus on what we are allowed to do, not what is unatainable.
Sorry discusguy, I'm with Henk on this one. The law is the law.
If we start a black list section, why dont we start a section on how to steal cars?
technically its not stealing so its not agiainst the Law?
But it teaches the wrong thing. same as discussing blacklisted items it is also teaching the worng thing.
We should focus on what we are allowed to do, not what is unatainable.
Everyone is free to there own opinion butcherman ; ) butcherman, stealing a car might be a little over the top as comparisn... Maybe speeding might be allong the same lines.
butcherman
21-05-2011, 18:16
Everyone is free to there own opinion butcherman ; ) butcherman, stealing a car might be a little over the top as comparisn... Maybe speeding might be allong the same lines.
Maybe it is over the top but that was the point i was trying to make.
Ok lets take another example, lets open a forum section on how to evade speed traps and radar speed cameras....
its still illegal but its not harming anyone, mearly sticking it to the man....
or lets talk about how to smoking weed is good for cancer patiences....
also illegal but its effect are good for people undergoing kimo
The point I'm making is everything has its place and an open forum such as TASA, is not the placed for blacklisted items.
Was breeding clownfish illegal? Which clown was it? (Just intrested because I want a marine tank sometime 8))
TASA members breeding guppies,angels, discus etc are in violation of the Marine Living Resources act according to MCM.
Does this mean that members that breed fish without a permit are criminals?
"Maybe it is over the top but that was the point i was trying to make.
Ok lets take another example, lets open a forum section on how to evade speed traps and radar speed cameras....
its still illegal but its not harming anyone, mearly sticking it to the man....
or lets talk about how to smoking weed is good for cancer patiences....
also illegal but its effect are good for people undergoing kimo
The point I'm making is everything has its place and an open forum such as TASA, is not the placed for blacklisted items."
I think we are missing the point completely.
We should write to a fish magazine and ask them to publish a list of the BL species. That would help with the main problem, education.
butcherman
21-05-2011, 18:21
firefly you got half the story, long story short, its illegal to breed them commercially. if your interested in breeding them Join MASA and talk about it there.
firefly you got half the story, long story short, its illegal to breed them commercially. if your interested in breeding them Join MASA and talk about it there.
Oww, my toes! 8)
butcherman
21-05-2011, 18:30
Oww, my toes! 8)
didnt mean it like that just pointing you in the right direction to enlightenment
Henk Hugo
21-05-2011, 18:32
firefly you got half the story, long story short, its illegal to breed them commercially. if your interested in breeding them Join MASA and talk about it there.
Remember he wasn't breeding them commercially - simply raising each batch of fry as they spawned. He never sold or bartered any of the fish he bred.
Remember he wasn't breeding them commercially - simply raising each batch of fry as they spawned. He never sold or bartered any of the fish he bred.
Then what was the problem? Sorry, just confused.
butcherman
21-05-2011, 18:35
Remember he wasn't breeding them commercially - simply raising each batch of fry as they spawned. He never sold or bartered any of the fish he bred.
yes i know i was paraphrasing :p if you want the true story it's on MASA :P but we still awiting to hear what the court has to say. which may never happen
Henk Hugo
21-05-2011, 18:39
Then what was the problem? Sorry, just confused.
As i said - its a trumped up charge. Remember they are trying to make an example of one guy. The even charged him with the wrong act.
its still illegal but its not harming anyone, mearly sticking it to the man....
or lets talk about how to smoking weed is good for cancer patiences....
also illegal but its effect are good for people undergoing kimo
The point I'm making is everything has its place and an open forum such as TASA, is not the placed for blacklisted items."
All valid points, I see exactly what you saying. I dont think it's a forums responsibility to enforce law but support it, hell yeah. Not allowing the trade in BL species is all the support TASA can offer. The point is, you cant enforce a rule if it's not accross the board. You cant ban someone for a thread on cherry shrimp care and then comment on the next guys thread and say "nice planted tank bud" with a bunch of BL'ed plants in the backround... I have not been a member hear a long time, but I can say that the forum has a limited amount of loyal members. Many have fallen off the bus since I have been here and most have because of the BL.... Any mod want to argue this? To me a forum is about building a community. You cant build one by fighting over stuff like a BL.
Support the blacklist, forbid trading but if someone has a question about a BL species he shouldnt be sent on a 4 week holiday to apsa because the truth is most dont come back after there holiday.
Dont you want to feel like you friends with the guys on the forum? I know I do. A holiday is like telling a friend to leave your house in the middle of the world cup final... If he is sitting naked on your couch, send the dude home but if he tells you how he nearly got pulled over by the metro police going 200km on the N1 are you really going to do that? NO?
Not that any crime is comparable. All Im saying is there is no need to make a mountain out of a mole hill... WE LOSING MEMBERS GUYS!
butcherman
21-05-2011, 19:16
of loyal members. Many have fallen off the bus since I have been here and most have because of the BL.... Any mod want to argue this? To me a forum is about building a community
WE LOSING MEMBERS GUYS!
Look at my post history, i have been disintersted in TASA for a long time.. i use to post every day now its once every 2 months. Discussing black listed items is NOT going to make me post more. Nore will it keep more members.
There are other issues that chase memebers away . I can ganantee you it's not because we are not discussing cherry shrimps or BL plants
Look at my post history, i have been disintersted in TASA for a long time.. i use to post every day now its once every 2 months. Discussing black listed items is NOT going to make me post more. Nore will it keep more members.
There are other issues that chase memebers away . I can ganantee you it's not because we are not discussing cherry shrimps or BL plants Ofcourse there are other issues as there are in many forums but this thread is about the BL ; ) The BL politics have chased away a large amount of members, thats my point. If everyone stops being so anal about the BL those members would still be here, contributing.
May I add, the proof is in the poll.... See above
butcherman
21-05-2011, 19:36
I'm sorry
I still dont see the point of discussing how to take care of and how to breed or how to get something to grow, When its on the BL list....
If you cant keep why would you need to discuss it?
I'm sorry
I still dont see the point of discussing how to take care of and how to breed or how to get something to grow, When its on the BL list....
If you cant keep why would you need to discuss it? It's not about that. It's about getting nailed everytime you mention anything on BL...
Although it might be intresting discussing a couple of unusual fish on the BL. Whether you have one or not. Another point to take into account is that many plants,inverts and fish are sold by LFS. I dont know about you, but I dont go study the BL everytime I want to buy a fish/plant.
If this exercise only brings about the freedom to say the word "shrimp" without the threat of being banned,it will be worth while.
If no one ever posts anything in the new section but have the opportunity to do so if you want,it will be worth while.
The mods will be able to relax and not worry about what BL sp. is being discussed on the open forum,even that is a positive.
If this exercise only brings about the freedom to say the word "shrimp" without the threat of being banned,it will be worth while.
If no one ever posts anything in the new section but have the opportunity to do so if you want,it will be worth while.
The mods will be able to relax and not worry about what BL sp. is being discussed on the open forum,even that is a positive.
Thank you, exactly my point. +1
If you cant keep why would you need to discuss it?
That's not the reason. When a LPS sells a fish to a person not aware of the BL and joins here, they are still going to want to ask about it. Why kill the fish if it will stay in the guys tank. It would be a waste of money. If that makes sense.
butcherman
22-05-2011, 08:02
It's about getting nailed everytime you mention anything on BL...
So your grip is with the mods not the actual rules?
shrimp shrimp shrimp shrimp shrimp.... its all about the context of what your saying. inevitable after talking about care of a freshwater shrimp. Someone WILL ask "where can i get one"
discussing a couple of unusual fish on the BL
I dont know about you, but I dont go study the BL everytime I want to buy a fish/plant.
Ignorance is no excuss for breaking the law.... oh officer i thought this weed was really oragano for my pizza... not going to work! As a fish keeper you should be absolutly sure of what your buying and weather you can keep it alive in the first place.... Resurach befor you but a fish. Thats the responsible thing to do!
The mods will be able to relax and not worry about what BL sp. is being discussed on the open forum,even that is a positive.
Rory has already said that he can make a BL section, but that it would have to have A BIG DISCLAIMER, and would have to be POLICED more heavily than befor.
This equals MORE work for the mods.... there will be no relaxing for them......
Why kill the fish if it will stay in the guys tank
What if someone buys a BL plant or fish and after a while some trimmings or the fish, or shrimp get into our water ways?
No natural predators means these things will out compete our local fish.... Do you wanna be the guy responsable for that?
So your grip is with the mods not the actual rules?
shrimp shrimp shrimp shrimp shrimp.... its all about the context of what your saying. inevitable after talking about care of a freshwater shrimp. Someone WILL ask "where can i get one"Dude, dont just make assumptions. If someone asks where can I get one then the rules can take there course, they read the disclaimer.
Ignorance is no excuss for breaking the law.... oh officer i thought this weed was really oragano for my pizza... not going to work! As a fish keeper you should be absolutly sure of what your buying and weather you can keep it alive in the first place.... Resurach befor you but a fish. Thats the responsible thing to do!
Just to be clear, I have not broken the law... I dont own anything on the blacklist. You can research a fish till you blue in the face, without actually opening the BL you wont know if it's on there...
shrimp shrimp shrimp shrimp shrimp....Relax bud, you seem to be taking this personal. No need to get out of hand.
What if someone buys a BL plant or fish and after a while some trimmings or the fish, or shrimp get into our water ways?
No natural predators means these things will out compete our local fish.... Do you wanna be the guy responsable for that?Again, you still missing the point here. It's not about keeping a BL plant or fish although 17 people in the pole did say they own BL fish/plants.
It's about discussing stuff thats on the BL. We are treated like children saying the "f" word on here when we mention anything abour the BL. Whether you think it's pointless to discuss something you dont own is irellevent. 28 other people do.
Like you said, you dont post here much. So why are you feeling so defensive? Do you go hassle apsa when people discuss a BL species?
28 other people do.
45 :bigsmile::bigsmile:
Daan Wessels
22-05-2011, 10:14
Quote "Just to be clear, I have not broken the law... I dont own anything on the blacklist. You can research a fish till you blue in the face, without actually opening the BL you wont know if it's on there..."
Where can one get the list of blacklisted items, i.e. Fish, Plants, other aquatic animals etc.?
I believe in following the law as a matter of principle. If everybody did that, ....... Utopia!
Henk Hugo
22-05-2011, 10:31
http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/forumdisplay.php?2-Rules-and-Regulations
Only 15% of active members voted so far. It would be interesting to see how many members visited the forum since this discussion started, to see what percentage of those voted. What do we read into the abstain vote? How is 'active' members defined?
Rory, can we see those stats?
Gert Combrink
22-05-2011, 11:07
If everyone go and have a close look at their tanks, perhaps more will vote on the first option.
Look and see if you don't see :apple snails, rams-horn snails, pond snails, flat snails or mts etc.
These could have hitched a ride with your last plant purchase...
pond snails,
No Gert, we meant REAL BL species :p. LOL I don't think anybody would need to know how to breed these.
Good point, though.
haha, can I go change my vote from 2 to one? You got me on the first thing you mentioned. The kids saw it in a LPS and brought it home. What to do? Jump on it? Or, next time I find it going for a stroll across the floor, pretend I do not see it? Found it twice already like that, all dried up. Chucked it back in the tank and a day later it is fine again!
butcherman
22-05-2011, 11:20
These could have hitched a ride with your last plant purchase...
and if they have hitch hiked? what exatly would you like to say about it gert?
this thread is getting to be a mud fight so whats the use its going to get everybody"s tails up with no solution leave things as they are we all joined the forum with the rules as they are now so stay or go ...thats my opinion
Leslie
Please dont get me started again! @butcherman (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/member.php?u=272)
i dont think you understand what is going on, if you dont want to be on TASA, then DONT!!!!!! but i do, and i do want to be able to post a thread in "ID Needed" and find out that the species in that thread is BL, and be able to know how to take care of it!!
and you are saying that you must know what you buy before you buy it???? Come on really? then all the flippen people will only have guppies!!!!!! as the LPS dont name the things right, then i have to go home again, google it, only to find something that does not look like the fish in the LPS!!!!!!!!!!!! what then? im 100% sure that you have a speeding fine, and that you dont stop at every stop sign?
Yes i understand that you DO HAVE A POINT, that what if the fish/plant?.... that is a BL species gets into our water? think of it like this; anyone that know its a BL and gets help on how to take care of it, will rather keep it in the tank, and really try and take care of it? but go off on the person and BAN him/her for even asking anything regarding the species, what will they do? well thats a 50/50 i think, flush it? or keep it!
education is the thing WE are looking for, make sure the people must know that if the BL fish or plant is dead, DONT flush it, chuck it out with the rest of your rubbish, and by doing that, how can we get any of that in our water???
butcherman I think you might be picking up stompies? Read the thread from the beginning & you'll find we are all pretty much in agreement. We'd like to be educated so we can make informed decisions. Treat people like adults & they'll behave like adults.
At least some of us understand what we are trying to do.
Daan Wessels
22-05-2011, 12:45
Thanks Henk,
It's a great help. A few of the fishes I intended acquiring and studying are on the list. I am specifically interested in the South African, Swazi, and Lesuthu Labeos. The smaller ones, especially like the Red eyed labeo and Labeo Mattozi (papermouth yellowfish)
It crimps my style but better to stay within the law.
Regards,
Daan
and if they have hitch hiked? what exatly would you like to say about it gert?
Still own a BL'ed species. Should not have them in a tank. So most of the people that have planted tanks, have the unseen snail. I voted for number because I have MTS and can't get rid of them.
You cant ban someone for a thread on cherry shrimp care and then comment on the next guys thread and say "nice planted tank bud" with a bunch of BL'ed plants in the backround.
discusguy... you are treading on VERY thin ice here!! (As well as a few other members. If you come on asking how to KEEP shirmp... you are BLATANTLY breaking the TASA rules, and YOU WILL be banned. I will make sure of this. Your Shrimp thread was not in the context of how to keep them, but if you are now openly admitting to wanting to know specifically how to keep them, then I advise you to join an international forum where you can get that information. The rules are CLEAR... YOU MAY NOT DISCUSS THEM IN THE CONTEXT OF KEEPING THEM. If you posting a picture of your tank and there is a BL species in your tank... you are NOT DISCUSSING THEM. May be a loophole or a problem in the rules... but Discusguy... that is the rules.. either abide or ship off. I feel nothing. (We've had discussions via PM, and we seemed to be ok with this whole issue... yet here you are sparking more and more problems.) (Other mods, please watch!)
Many have fallen off the bus since I have been here and most have because of the BL.... Any mod want to argue this?
If you believe that then you will believe anything.
There are other issues that chase memebers away
Hi butcherman... been a while since we seen you around. All your posts so far have been absolutely valid
If everyone stops being so anal about the BL those members would still be here, contributing.
NO.. you are 100% wrong. All the "older" members that you talk about leaving are sick and tired of the "younger" generation from trying to push the boundaries. The BL is one of the boundary that is being pushed... not the only. I've had MANY long discussions with the more experienced memebrs... and trust me the BL is not the cause.
I still dont see the point of discussing how to take care of and how to breed or how to get something to grow, When its on the BL list....
If you cant keep why would you need to discuss it?
This was the initial thoughts... but a lot of people are saying they want to talk about them. HOWEVER... the mods WILL moderate every post first, and if you are found to be asking (blatantly) for BL species you will be banned. If you guys want to talk about BL species... then go ahead... However as has been said.. 9/10 times the threads always go towards... "so where can I get?" ANd this will land you up in trouble. (TASA TOO)
If this exercise only brings about the freedom to say the word "shrimp" without the threat of being banned,it will be worth while.
If no one ever posts anything in the new section but have the opportunity to do so if you want,it will be worth while.
The mods will be able to relax and not worry about what BL sp. is being discussed on the open forum,even that is a positive.
This is the ultimate.
When a LPS sells a fish to a person not aware of the BL and joins here, they are still going to want to ask about it. Why kill the fish if it will stay in the guys tank. It would be a waste of money. When a noob comes on with this dilema, a mod will politely PM and explain the problem. 99.9% of the time the noob will reply with a thanks, undersatand the issue, and will never bring it up again. The noob is fully understanding. But the MEMBERS on this forum all feel that it is their duty to have their say.. and it is this that scares or creates the bad image. You have no idea how many times a mod has spoken to the newbie, and yet some of you members (who are actually bitching here) are having a go at the poor person...) You all screaming that Mods need to do their job... but if you cannot SEE it, then you say we don't do our jobs. If we do it in public, you bitch that we are too harsh.
Another point to take into account is that many plants,inverts and fish are sold by LFS. I dont know about you, but I dont go study the BL everytime I want to buy a fish/plant. You shouldn't admit to this! you should NEVER EVER buy a fish without doing research. This is common knowledge, and good practise. If you buy a house, you do research, car = research, pet dog = research.... now you go buy fishy.. oooo look, nice fish.... buy buy buy. Next weekend... oooo nice fishy.. buy buy buy..... next week.... new post in TASA... fish hiding what can I do?? (RESEARCH YOUR FING fish before buying them!)
i dont think you understand what is going on, if you dont want to be on TASA, then DONT!!!!!! but i do, and i do want to be able to post a thread in "ID Needed" and find out that the species in that thread is BL, and be able to know how to take care of it!!
Vez... If you ask for an ID and you find out it's a BL species... that thread is totally legit. If you got and want further information on how to keep it, I will PERSONALLY BAN YOU, and again, this is DIRECTLY against our rules. You may discuss BL species, yet NOT IN THE CONTEXT HOW KEEPING THEM (HOW) or sales.
Again... Butcherman had a very good point a few posts ago... "then what is the point of discussing them?" I agree with this.
and you are saying that you must know what you buy before you buy it???? Come on really?
This is EXACTLY the PRINCIPLE that TASA is trying to teach each and every member. If you are buying without knowning what you are buying, then you are ASKING for trouble.
At least some of us understand what we are trying to do.
WOuld be nice if you could share this with me.. because this thread has taken a complete turn.
oscar freak
22-05-2011, 14:11
As this topic always does we should put this topic on the BL list.
I went through all the post since I was on line last night and it seems everybody is running in circles.All seems to have valid points in their respective arguments but then comes up with something that sounds @ss back wards,excuse my French.
Some members seems to be angels and can do nothing wrong,others admitting to breaking the law,knowingly or not.All very entertaining but beside the point.
I'd like to add another reason why the rule amendment is in TASA's interest,international participation.What do I mean?As it stands anyone is free to join TASA,South African or foreigner.But our foreign brothers and sisters are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to discussing their tanks,or inhabitants.They can show the tank pictures but can't say what's in the tank.They can't mention water parameters,fertilisation,substrate or food.All in the context of how to keep or propagate BL species.
If you can't share your tank,why join a international forum?I'm just now thinking how many potential forum members has been effectively turned away because of this rule.Some members would argue that it doesn't matter but if ideas are not shared we will start to stagnate.Obviously we can join other forums but why then stay a contributing member of TASA?I want to be here on TASA because it is South African and distinct South African issues are discussed,I can't get that from a foreign forum.
Daan Wessels
22-05-2011, 14:45
Thanks Henk,
It's a great help. A few of the fishes I intended acquiring and studying are on the list. I am specifically interested in the South African, Swazi, and Lesuthu Labeos. The smaller ones, especially like the Red eyed labeo and Labeo Mattozi (papermouth yellowfish)
Correction; It s Barbus Mattozi,
Slip of the fingers typing. This species seems to be VERY high on the Bass diet. It has all but disappeared from waters where Bass has been introduced.
The redeyed labeo is a victim of the acid pollution due to opencast mining in M'Pumalanga and now apparently is only found in Mocambique.
Regards,
Daan
It crimps my style but better to stay within the law.
Regards,
Daan
GreenGirl
22-05-2011, 16:41
Thank goodness someone with some sense spoke up! Thank you dougbb (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/member.php?373-dougbb)
I come from a Horticulture (plant) background and even plant people aren't that anal.
If we don't get to discuss anything openly then how do we ever find out about it?
Henk Hugo
22-05-2011, 17:25
Thanks Henk,
It's a great help. A few of the fishes I intended acquiring and studying are on the list. I am specifically interested in the South African, Swazi, and Lesuthu Labeos. The smaller ones, especially like the Red eyed labeo and Labeo Mattozi (papermouth yellowfish)
It crimps my style but better to stay within the law.
Regards,
Daan
Pleasure Daan. Just be aware that keeping any native/indigiounous animal needs a permit for collections, transport and keeping. You also need to check if the more stranger fish you want to collect/keep aren't on any endangered lists.
Thank goodness someone with some sense spoke up! Thank you dougbb (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/member.php?373-dougbb)
I come from a Horticulture (plant) background and even plant people aren't that anal.
If we don't get to discuss anything openly then how do we ever find out about it?
heads up, for this some people give you - Rep, just a pity that he does not have the B... to do it openly!
butcherman
22-05-2011, 18:48
Wow looks like i am as popular as ever,
This is suppose to be a debate, all i am doing is pointing out the negative impacts something like this would have on TASA.
Hi butcherman... been a while since we seen you around. All your posts so far have been absolutely valid
Zoom as always a pleasure.
HOWEVER... the mods WILL moderate every post first, and if you are found to be asking (blatantly) for BL species you will be banned. If you guys want to talk about BL species... then go ahead... However as has been said.. 9/10 times the threads always go towards... "so where can I get?" And this will land you up in trouble. (TASA TOO)
I'm glad your up for this policing challenge!:amazed:
If you are buying without knowing what you are buying, then you are ASKING for trouble.
I still do not know why guys buy fish, plants of snails. other forums you get such a grilling if you buy something and you don't research it first.:wondering:
I vote there should be a section! Where is the harm in learning about these species as long as you don't go out and buy them....
Something I have noticed is some threads that get closed due to the mention of BL species although the topic of the thread was never about these species and by then closing the threads some very useful info was lots simply because someone mentioned shrimp or something like that. So my thought was that if there is a BL section these threads could be moved there and the valuable info that comes with them is not lost.
With a BL section some amateurs can also learn how easy it is to get these species and they might get some very useful advice on how to avoid accidentally buying some of these species.
butcherman
22-05-2011, 19:13
Where is the harm in learning about these species as long as you don't go out and buy them....
Here in lies the problem.
Guys will ask where can i get this or that. Guys will start threads
like "Accedentally" obtian BL species please help me look after it.
And in doing so TASA is enabeling these people who break the law.
With a BL section some amateurs can also learn how easy it is to get these species and they might get some very useful advice on how to avoid accidentally buying some of these species.
guys have admitted in this very thread they dont bother to research what they are buying, and now you want them to reaserch it in a special section?
Does anyone know what is suppose to happen to BL species if found in south africa?
So make specific rules for that specific sections, like that "accidental" purchase and looking after accidentally purchased BL species may not be assisted.
In my opinion you can't generalize like that because although there are plenty of ignorant people out there that do not research what they buy there are also plenty who do do their research, just the fact of this forum existing is proof of that.
As to what is suppose to happen to BL species in this country I do not know but I think the start of a specific section could lead to some people actually confronting the pet shops they acquired these species and tell them that they are in fact BL. I know it is a long shot but there may just be one person out there who will do something.
But thats just my opinion.
lets rather talk fish on the forum and end this here its really getting " afgesaag" leave the rules as we all excepted it in the first place
I've kept mostly shut on this topic.:mad:
Although I voted for a BL section I do not deem it necessary to be created for me in order to keep on being a member here.
I joined TASA first and foremost because it is a South-African Forum,to meet other fishkeepers that stays in the same Country,Province and Town as I do and to gain more knowledge.
A Lot were said about "Oldies" leaving because of BL threads being closed,but it is surely not true.:p
I for instance had words with people like Henk Hugo but soon came to realise how stupid such arguments is.:amazed:
Should I want to know about how to Keep and Breed anything on a BL I only have to use Google.:idea:
We did not have any mods in the beginning except @Rory (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/member.php?u=1) who occationally let "The EYE" roam the posts,and it was not a problem.
What is a problem is that People DO NOT READ THE RULES that they agreed to abide by when they joined TASA.
Surely you will not go to your Church,School or Work and say "All of us voted that we want to Discuss smoking POT during the Sermon/Class/Work,and we want to do it"
You will surely be Banned from that "Organisation".
I've already seen "New" members insisting that they WANT this.
Let me tell you that we are NOT THE OWNER OF THIS SITE nor do any of us have any shares in it.
The MODS are not the OWNERS as well,and are doing their work free of charge.
So short and sweet,if you keep on INSISTING that you do want this otherwise you are going to leave,well Good Bye then.
If you feel offended by this post do not bother to reply here,just phone me,my number shows on my Signature.
lets rather talk fish on the forum and end this here its really getting " afgesaag" leave the rules as we all excepted it in the first place
Ditto
I totally agree with you, just gave my vote because people were asking for it :)
this here its really getting " afgesaag"
These type of threads always land up like this...
1 member having a fit
1 member PM mod's
1 member leaving
and another 50 other members all trying to debate whether the rules of the forum can be changed to suit them.
I think the biggest issue we having (and this is up for the mod's to decide and announce) is the correct interpretation of the the BL ruling. Then after the announcement is made, I don't care what act, biodiversity ruling blah blah humbug you want to quote, you will all digitally sign (via re-accepting the rules) that TASA cannot and will not be held liable for your BL stupidity.
leave the rules as we all excepted it in the first place
99.9% of the members here don't even know where to FIND the rules, let alone acknowledge that they even signed to agree to it in the first place!
Should I want to know about how to Keep and Breed anything on a BL I only have to use Google.
This is a very valid point. It won't cause problems with members and the site. I think this is a better idea.
I think everyone should just agree to disagree and leave it at that
leave the rules as we all excepted it in the first place
Which, regarding the BL, state "Any species on the South African black list (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?t=78) are not allowed to be discussed in the context of keeping them in aquaria."
I am happy to accept that. There seems to be a perception that ANY discussion is against the rules and must be punished. Perhaps the people that report BL posts haven't read the second half of the rule and need to be more discerning.
Always ends the same :)
I feel like a child in the middle of devorce. Mom and Dad arguing what's best for
me and I sit in the middle.
How about you decide what's good for you, vote for it and leave it at that?
Why argue your point or idea with someone else?
If you want to talk BL do it and if you don't, ignore it duh...
Another point to consider is how do we know what Species is Black Listed? I've been to 4 LFS's and they all stock snails for sale... First time today after reading this they are on the BL??? If i had to have a BL species of some sort how would I dispose of them? Is it fair toward the creature/pet?
DesertConvert
23-05-2011, 08:27
If you cant keep why would you need to discuss it?
Honestly? Some of us thrive on knowledge...yes, some may be pointless but it is not a crime to have a good general knowledge.
butcherman
23-05-2011, 08:41
99.9% of the members here don't even know where to FIND the rules, let alone acknowledge that they even signed to agree to it in the first place!
Another point to consider is how do we know what Species is Black Listed?
henk posted a link to the BL listas well and TASA rules. read all the info is there already. :blink1:
http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/forumdisplay.php?2-Rules-and-Regulations
http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/forumdisplay.php?2-Rules-and-Regulations
I suggest everyone read all of these threads!
Which, regarding the BL, state "Any species on the South African black list are not allowed to be discussed in the context of keeping them in aquaria."
I am happy to accept that. There seems to be a perception that ANY discussion is against the rules and must be punished. Perhaps the people that report BL posts haven't read the second half of the rule and need to be more discerning.
I am happy to accept that.
I am sorry to say that you have already accepted that. The fact that you can post on TASA means that you have accepted all the rules and regulations of the forum.
Let me ask you this... what information would you like to know that does not fall under "in the context of keeping them in aquaria"? (Hence all threads being closed!)
Always ends the same :)
I feel like a child in the middle of devorce. Mom and Dad arguing what's best for
me and I sit in the middle.
How about you decide what's good for you, vote for it and leave it at that?
Why argue your point or idea with someone else?
If you want to talk BL do it and if you don't, ignore it duh...
I agree with Gerhard on this, let the poll decide and then the MODS needs to adjust to the poll results
OT posts moved here: http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?7763-Hobby-rapture
butcherman
23-05-2011, 12:17
thanks Rory
Is it possible to get the poll back on the home page, or is the new poll opened intentionally to have a new poll on the home page?
I for one would like to see this thing run full coarse and a definite decision taken. Over 90% voted for a new section so far. Is it going to be implemented? How long before a decision will be taken?
Just the jay or nay.
I realize it is a huge job and will take time.
Does the poll have an ending time?
Will see if I can get this one back on the homepage. Poll closes end of today.
Looks like that's an overwhelming "yes" response so yes it will be implemented. (unless 60 people vote no today)
Can't say when but probably within a week. Myself and the mods will have to discuss a few things and get everybody on the same track.
(all that is assuming the hobby/world doesn't end soon)
butcherman
23-05-2011, 13:48
(all that is assuming the hobby/world doesn't end soon)
remember apparently the real end of the world is 21 October now... apparently there was a lack of interest in the last Apocalypse
I think there've been about 5 apocalypse dates since 2000 or so... What's really dumb is there's articles about killing themselves, killing their children, selling their homes and partying, etc.
I think there've been about 5 apocalypse dates since 2000 or so... What's really dumb is there's articles about killing themselves, killing their children, selling their homes and partying, etc.
Donate everything to redcross the night before. Would help a lot.
butcherman
23-05-2011, 13:54
Donate everything to redcross the night before. Would help a lot.
:idea: donate your fish tanks to me the night befor :D
Thanks Rory.
So this thing is basically put to bed then.
Secretly hoped the mob will not rule, but hey, we the people, have spoken!
I predict the new section will be a grave yard in any case. hehe.
butcherman
23-05-2011, 14:46
I predict the new section will be a grave yard in any case. hehe.
same here.
I am sorry to say that you have already accepted that. The fact that you can post on TASA means that you have accepted all the rules and regulations of the forum.
That's what I said ;)
what information would you like to know that does not fall under "in the context of keeping them in aquaria"?
Here I would have to quote Martin...
Honestly? Some of us thrive on knowledge...yes, some may be pointless but it is not a crime to have a good general knowledge.
Gert Combrink
04-06-2011, 12:21
So, what's happening to this thread?
Like some predicted - DEAD?
Its all fun and games until somebody ...
That said seem like a missed out on all of this fun.
So, what's happening to this thread? Like some predicted - DEAD?
I was under the impression that no further discussion was necessary. We agreed:
Looks like that's an overwhelming "yes" response so yes it will be implemented. (unless 60 people vote no today) Can't say when but probably within a week.
Dirk Bellstedt
11-06-2011, 12:44
Hi Guys,
Could we perhaps get one thing right here. What has been written here as "ammendment" is incorrectly spelt, it is "amendment". The spelling on this forum is just simply becoming terrible!!!!!
Kind regards,
Dirk
Hi Guys,
Could we perhaps get one thing right here. What has been written here as "ammendment" is incorrectly spelt, it is "amendment". The spelling on this forum is just simply becoming terrible!!!!!
Kind regards,
Dirk
+1 !!!
Hi Guys,
Could we perhaps get one thing right here. What has been written here as "ammendment" is incorrectly spelt, it is "amendment". The spelling on this forum is just simply becoming terrible!!!!!
Kind regards,
Dirk
+1 !!!!
Dirk Bellstedt
11-06-2011, 13:41
I find that I am sometimes not able to understand what folks are asking, similar to this which I found a few years ago:
"Eye have a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea."
Kind regards,
Dirk
Maybe Rory can incorporate a spell checker?
Um... there IS a spell checker!
Milamber
11-06-2011, 14:09
Firefox has a built in Spell Checker for browsing and it works on the forum as well.
Dirk Bellstedt
11-06-2011, 17:33
Bit ut iss knot yused
Please keep the thread on topic. We all understand what is meant by the topic, splitting hairs over the corrects spelling is not necessary. Dirk, please understand that we have a huge amount of members who do not speak english as a first, and sometimes even a second laguage. And not everyone is pc friendly.
Some internet browsers have a built in spell chequer, but IE is not one of them
Sent from my Tablet using Tapatalk
DesertConvert
11-06-2011, 20:10
And we could argue spelling of specific words too...spelt vs spelled? English vs American spellings. I try to be a grammar & spelling Nazi but as with everything else in life, we all have our strengths & weaknesses. As long as the poster is not posting using sms-speak and the post makes sense, I can accept it. Peace out.
DesertConvert
11-06-2011, 20:11
Both 'spelt' & 'spelled' are correct, though spelled is the more commonly used.
I'm probably a bit overly sensitive to some things after the Stormers loss to the Bulls yesterday,but in what I think is a very important discussion on TASA,is 'correct spelling' the only comment you guys can add?Seriously?Nothing els?
Dirk Bellstedt
12-06-2011, 09:35
Hi Rudi,
I agree about the importance of the thread, but in the thread heading, you have what as far as I am concerned a major spelling error, a real clanger as far as I am concerned. Am I then not entitled to mention this? It completely distracts from the thread as far as I am concerned. I am not worried at all about different spellings of English as Desert Convert mentions, I would accept any, I am just concerned about writing English with correct spelling and there have been many more major errors of late. In my work, I have to write a lot of scientific papers and reports and if you make mistakes there you get criticized heavily. As a result, I am sensitized to seeing errors and I have to correct errors in reports and seminars all the time. What I have noticed is that the general ability of spelling in South Africa has deteriorated severely over the past ten or fifteen years and I just wonder whether this is because the education system is failing or whether because of the advent of SMS language, people are so confused or could not care less that it has degenerated to the extent that it has.
That is my opinion and that is the point that I want to make!
Kind regards,
Dirk
You could've made the point in a new thread.There is no need to clutter this thread with something that has nothing to do with the topic,even if it is spelt wrong.You can mention anything you want but keep it on topic,thread hijacking is still rude and uncalled for.
Sms language has only been around for the past 4 or 5yrs. So i blame education.
Sent from my Tablet using Tapatalk
Dirk Bellstedt
12-06-2011, 15:19
Hi Rudi,
But if you spell "amendment" as "ammendment" this word does not describe what you are trying to bring across in this thread, which is an amendment of the rules. For this reason my comments are not cluttering this thread and have everything to do with this thread. There is no such a thing as an "ammendment" so for all intents and purposes (note spelling because I have seen this completely misspelt on this forum as well) the discussion here means nothing. It also has nothing to do with thread hijacking as this is absolutely to the point of the thread nor is it uncalled for.
I contribute to overseas forums (English and German) and I am even a moderator of an American forum but nowhere, do I see this bad spelling and grammar. I think the South African education system is failing dismally as Ashley indicates, and what worries me even more is that no one seems to care either, and this making out that this has nothing to do with this thread is another indication that folks in SA just simply do not seem to care nor to take pride in spelling and using grammar correctly. For me this is a grave state of affairs.
Kind regards,
Dirk
intense and purpose
Ammonia thread again!
Damn, this guy is irritating the hell out of the Prof!!
So, while we are discussing rule amendments, maybe we can introduce another rule, where you get a point for every spelling mistake. Three points if it is in the thread heading. These points can then be displayed as another statistic on your profile. We can make it fun, too. We can make a game of playing, 'split your mate'. That way we can make sure everyone is so busy with spell checkers, dictionaries and thesauruses that one will think twice before posting another post that irritates the hell out of each other and make no sense.
That can be TASA's contribution to address the lack of educational standards in this country.
Then start a new thread,Dirk.You can call it "South African education system sucks" or "No one cares" or whatever.Your comment still has nothing to do with the thread or to be more precise,the general content of the thread.
You can ask the moderators to change the topic to "Rule amendment" if you like but the content will stay the same,the opinions won't change and your comment still won't add anything constructive to the discussion.
Dirk Bellstedt
12-06-2011, 18:27
I think the corrections should be made right here, I mean this thread is 16 pages long and no one has even asked about the correction of the spelling of "ammendment", this is atrocious as far as I am concerned and as a result I am adding something that is constructive, I am adding what is wrong in this thread!
Kind regards,
Dirk
I think the corrections should be made right here, I mean this thread is 16 pages long and no one has even asked about the correction of the spelling of "ammendment", this is atrocious as far as I am concerned and as a result I am adding something that is constructive, I am adding what is wrong in this thread!
Kind regards,
Dirk
Personally what I find amazing is that a blacklisted thread has made it to page 16, with extremely constructive discussion about a very relevant topic. Every single other thread that deals with the blacklist lands up being closed because it turns nasty. We are on page 16, the entire thread has been (1) on topic, and (2) hugely beneficial to the forum. Dirk, you have not been around as of late, but I'm sure some of our members will agree that the whole blacklist issue seems to be a little bit more tolerable as of late. Regardless of how the word was spelt in the name of the thread, the thread had more benefit to all on tasa than any other thread posted in the last few months.
I find it amazing that we are on page 16, EVERYONE knows the the topic is about, and NO ONE cared about the spelling of the word.
Maybe instead of criticising us South Africans for not taking pride in our spelling and grammar, take note of how tolerable South Africans are of such (in my opinion) trivial matters. Germans speak German or English, so obviously their English will be good. England speaks... Duh. USA is same. SA has 11 languages, we cannot expect everyone to speak, type and spell Oxford English.
I agree 100% with Rudi on this one, this should have been brought up in a completely different thread, as this arguement is not being constructive to anything of this thread, which, up until now, has been very constructive.
Regardless of whether it was spelt ammendment, amendment or even if it was spelt amndmnt we all knew that the thread was about.
Sent from my Tablet using Tapatalk
I.M.O. the content of this thread is a little bit more important than the spelling of the title and in these 14 pages forum members were allowed to speak their minds about a very contentious rule for the first time without the fear of being reprimanded.
Now all you can add to a sensitive topic is a mis spelt word.This is not a school essay,it's a public forum were things are sometimes typed in haste when the topic gets a bit heated,as it did.Did you read the thread at all?
Dirk,you could have just as easily brought your grievances to the attention of the moderators.They are,after all,the only persons who can rectify this most terrible mistake.You can't do it,I can't do it.And then to reduce this thread to your personal "spelling crusade" is,for lack of a better word,atrocious.
Dirk Bellstedt
12-06-2011, 20:56
Well Rudi,
If we bring this thread back to the topic, then I actually want to put another aspect on to the discussion table and that is that at present the whole black list is to be changed in any case. In 2009 in the Government Gazette, the new biodiversity law that was to be implemented was outlined (it was published with a full list which I have as a pdf, and if the mods wanted to we could make this available somehow perhaps, I have it in my possession), and very, very many of the blacklisted plants and fishes, and shrimps for that matter as well, have dissappeared from the list. I am not sure when the new law will be implemented but then most of what is being debated here, will not be relevant in any case. For this very reason, I also do not understand why there has been this sensitivity on this forum about the blacklist, because soon the present blacklist will be no more!
So besides the spelling perhaps this whole thread is also a storm in a teacup? Some food for thought?
Kind regards,
Dirk
I'm sorry Dirk but it seems to me even you are missing the point of the whole thing.It's not just if or why shrimps,certain plants or fish are on the black list,but why we as a forum are, or were,not allowed to discuss,name or show these species.Whether some species are omitted from the list or legalised in the near future does not change that fact.
If I saw an interesting article about,lets say Sulawesi snails and shrimp or any other blacklisted species,then I'm not allowed to share that article on TASA.I'm not allowed to discuss these animals because inverts are on the current blacklist,the one that counts.All that is debated here will still be relevant.
That's what this thread is about.Freedom of speech is not a storm in a teacup.
Dirk Bellstedt
12-06-2011, 21:52
Well Rudi,
If you would have a look at the new list, then there is nothing left to debate about, that is my point, and that is the point I am trying to make.
Kind regards,
Dirk
Oh, I am sure there will be other interesting creatures on the new blacklist(whenever is comes into play). So I agree with Rudi on this one.
I think if one makes it clear enough that this section is about "illegal" species and that this forum does not endorse the keeping, etc. of such species, it could be rather informative. Not only might it shed some light as to why certain species are blacklisted, but if nothing else it might be a perfect tool to educate uninformed members about the status of certain species.
So instead of the moderators having to block a thread - it can be referred to the "blacklisted-section" and that way people can be nudged onto the righteous path instead of the usual "fire and brimstone" approach. We have to agree that there has been some discussions in the pass about "scaring" people off when our diligent moderators would shut down "blacklisted-discussions" and this might be a better way to handle the issue.
Surely education about the hobby must include the no-no's too?
My two cents..
Morné
Gregorian
13-06-2011, 10:00
Hi. I while back I was banned for having Rainbow cichlids. A friend gave me 2 which he bought from a LFS in Bellville. He was not sure what they were and on the end I was banned for a few days after asking what specie is was on the forum. I few weeks back I went to some LFS and 2 shops had a few of them in stock. ??????. I gave them away to one of the shops.
If its blacklisted why is it still sold at 2 places without nobody caring? I still have around 20 babies 20-30mm that I need to get rid of.
Just my 2 cents worth as well.
If you would have a look at the new list, then there is nothing left to debate about, that is my point, and that is the point I am trying to make.
The new list has been in draft for many years... and until it is actually put into law, we have to enforce the current BL. Which is why this thread (was) so useful at the time. The moderators (admittedly) were taking an overly heavy stance on any mention of BL species... not realizing that we were in actual fact causing more damage to the entire BL dilemma than good. So what you are saying is that this entire thread, and the whole blacklist saga is completely useless because there is a new one coming out? What if it takes another 10 years before it comes out... we can't plead this case to the authorities should they ever decide to do something on the forum about it.
Let me put it to you this way... there were rumours in the ACE education system a few years ago of them accepting the following as common and accepted English: (The head of the ACE department SA is a family friend of my parents, and she was my principal when I was in junior high)
U = you
4 = for
4got = forgot
4ward = forward (etc)
2 = to or too (depending on context)
Let's say this is put into writing, and awaiting acceptance from the ACE education board. Can I now say that I will accept this type of spelling and sms style language on the forum because it's in draft format with an education system as possibly being accepted.
Surely this would be atrocious? But why...? It's in writing with an education board to be accepted? Why can't we just enforce the acceptance now on our forum? The same would apply with the BL. The CURRENT BL needs to be enforced, NOT what could be. (To be honest, I seriously doubt this new BL law will come into being for at least another 5-10 years... but that's just my opinion.)
Dirk Bellstedt
13-06-2011, 21:11
Hi Ashley,
The dilemna that is already happening is that the blacklist is not being enforced, whether it is law or not. Why I say this is because I see shrimp offered for sale in shops and they are on the current black list. So what is happening is that although the new list is not law yet, it is already being applied for all intents and purposes. What this means is that the old black list is actually defunct. This is very weird, but it is the state of affairs. So for this forum to not debate it is actually also pointless.
This is the approach that has been taken on the APSA forum, just for the record. I think WBS's early post confirms this.
Kind regards,
Dirk
We on tasa are also considering allowing the discussion of bl species, which is what the thread is all about. We just waiting for Rory to make the final decision and open up a sub forum. We will however not allow the open trading of bl species on the forum even if lps do. I believe this is even a ruling on apsa as well.
Sent from my Tablet using Tapatalk
Dirk Bellstedt
13-06-2011, 21:19
Hi Ashley,
I am in full agreement on the trading of bl species, that should not be permitted, but a discussion is what we need. As a matter of fact, I think that I would like to see a few more fishes listed on the new list, I actually think it is too lenient and I have definite opinions about some non-blacklisted fishes. I would be quite happy to discuss this sort of thing as well.
Kind regards,
Dirk
I am in full agreement on the trading of bl species, that should not be permitted, but a discussion is what we need. As a matter of fact, I think that I would like to see a few more fishes listed on the new list, I actually think it is too lenient and I have definite opinions about some non-blacklisted fishes. I would be quite happy to discuss this sort of thing as well.
+1 again...
Just checked back on this thread, fortunately had no internet this weekend (fortunate as that means I was in the Magaliesburg getting some fresh air). Dirk Bellstedt, the spelling error was an oversight on my behalf. I noticed it the following day but as the thread replies were on topic and the points had been delivered there was no need to make a correction (To be honest I was not even sure if titles could be edited). Really glad this thread has stayed on topic and such rich debate has been had. Think the moderators have done a great job on this one. Now if only someone could just give government a nudge and have the new laws implemented.
We on tasa are also considering allowing the discussion of bl species, which is what the thread is all about. We just waiting for Rory to make the final decision and open up a sub forum. We will however not allow the open trading of bl species on the forum even if lps do. I believe this is even a ruling on apsa as well.
Sent from my Tablet using Tapatalk
The decision was made long ago... The new forum is set up and ready to go etc,just need to finalise (see: come up with) the rules...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.10 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.