Planning my sump.

[TomK]

I acquired a second-hand 240lt tank and stand. It is all part of my learning curve and I made a drawing of the sump I plan for it.

I would appreciate comments and pointing out of pitfalls. Like, can you place your heater(s) in your bio section?

There will be no glass and up and downs involved in the compartments. The compartments will be separated by mesh and the filter media in suitable containers. Therefore you will have one big 'bore' of slow flowing water. I think the drawing explain a lot, but please ask if unclear.


http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/SumpDrawing.jpg

[f-fish]

Must be getting old - pic does not want to up size and my eyes are shot.

From what I can see: Remove the airstones - first one probably not needed since the water just did a meter drop, second one will only make you water cold after the heaters did what was needed.

I like the idea of mesh containers / compartments.

Now the trick - if MTS bites (and it does) you get specific about the height of tanks and the sorts - are you happy with the height of that tank - I've made several stands - I choose to make the primary tanks base / stand height 700mm - but I am stuck with a stand just like yours that is sitting at 600 .. looks odd in the fish room. If you can mode it then increase the stand height and give some of that back as an increase in sump volume. Would a 930x45x30 not be a nicer sump 125l ? Or if you alter the stand a stock 3ft can become your sump.

Later Ferdie

[TomK]

Remove the airstones

My aim is to have no equipment in the tank. I dream about it! Only the overflow and inlet. Nothing more. Also, I hate bubbles in the tank.


first one probably not needed since the water just did a meter drop
I am thinking of dropping the overflow to below water level in the sump, to reduce noise. Will it then still help with gas exchange?


second one will only make you water cold
Will it really have a noticeable affect?


I like the idea of mesh containers / compartments.
Prof made me think. It does make sense.


if MTS bites

Already did...

Would a 930x45x30 not be a nicer sump 125l ?

It sure would, but I am not up to start altering the stand. Just not enough time. So this will have to do. I will for sure keep it in mind when I plan my big tank. This is just to learn from my mistakes, which I hope to limit with the advice of you guys. But then again, I do not want to bloody listen...

[TomK]

pic does not want to up size and my eyes are shot


Sorry about that. It was bigger, but I resized it because i thought it is too big. Now I can not undo it, I tried.

[Singhms]

Tom.K how is this project of your new sump going?

I would love to know more as I am also planning large tank and dont want to mess it up!

Thanks,

[TomK]

jwalker
My planning is sort of put aside for now. I am also watching for ideas, but have no immediate plans to do something. I have enough canisters, so no immediate need. I guess the only thing that will get me to do something now, is if it will reduce my water changes! haha, I am moaning and moaning, hey?

So the ball is in your court, do it and give feedback!

[Singhms]

Tom.K Will let you know once I am ready to go for it. Planning at the moment, As I am looking at a +- 1000L tank I dont want to mess it up :)

[TomK]

My plans has started to come into action. I built my sump from scratch, had the glass cut and silicone it myself. I build the overflow and bought the pump. I am using the Eheim compact+ 3000. The flow is adjustable from 1500-3000 l/h. Luckily I took an adjustable pump, as now I can fine tune the level of the water in the sump. The water level in the tank is adjusted by the level of the overflow. Works great and I can make sure neither my sump nor tank will overflow. The only danger is if I should have a leak of air into the siphon part of the overflow. The air tubing that is bend so it can not suck air, might spring a leak, but I doubt it. The pump is super quite and the overflow does not make gurgling noises as I heard people complain. I do not know why, I suspect it is because of the high flow, filling the overflow pipe. I dropped the overflow inlet to the sump to below water level, otherwise you do have that waterfall sound/noise.

So, today may divider that I had holes drilled(cut) into, arrived. It is a piece of Perspex I bought, cut to size and then send to a rubber stamp manufacturer, that has a laser cutting machine. He cut the holes at 5 mm diameter and 2.5 mm apart. At the slow flow rate in the sump, I will have virtually no resistance from it. I will test it over the weekend and have the rest drilled on Monday if I am happy. The principle of the sump is to have water enter at high flow. Then the 'bore' as Prof calls it opens up to 34 cm wide, which slows the flow down to virtually nothing. Then the pump picks the water up again and return it at high flow to the tank. I think I have the best of both worlds. High water turn around in my tank and slow movement through the media, giving the matrix and bacteria ample time to do its job. I did not drill holes in my tank, I do not have the up and down flow of water through the sump and maximum capacity.

As the project progress, I will give more pics. Here is a top view of the overflow and a pic of the divider that just arrived.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/IMG_0864Medium.jpg

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/devider.jpg

[mattie]

looking good Tom

[TomK]

Some more (useless) data on my sump. I measured the flow rate of the water returned into the tank at 600 l/h. (So much for specs that says 1500-3000l/h, ok, maybe the head of 800 mm is causing the drop from 1500 to 600 l/h) Some complicated calculations reveal that the velocity into the sump is 149.9 mm/second into the sump and then 4.46 mm/second through the sump, leaving again at 150 mm/second, or 600 l/h. My tanks volume is therefore turned 4.6 times per hour or 110 times per day. They say you have to turn your tanks volume at least four times to have all the water going through the filter at least once.

So in comparison with the velocity of the water entering the sump and the velocity of the water inside the sump, the velocity inside the sump is pretty slow. But, as Prof. stated in his thread, this is pretty useless if the water is not carrying oxygen. The temperature of the water plays a big role here, as that is determining how much oxygen the water can carry.

I therefore made the right decision in placing my heaters in the area after the filter media, just before it leave the sump. So the coldest possible water is entering the sump and is heated just before it is returned to the tank, higher than the tank temp, in order to keep the tank at it's desired temperature. You therefore can not set your heater to 26 degrees if that is what you want your tank to be. You will have to adjust your heaters and see the effect in the tank, by doing small adjustments over a period of time.

Your coldest water is tumbling down the overflow pipe, in my case 800 mm, therefore creating action in the water and aerating it. (and cooling it down some more) It will not hurt to place an air stone in this entrance area, to further aerate the water, being colder, having maximum oxygen in the water. You now have the water moving through your mechanical filter media, causing no loss in oxygen. It however is a different story once the water enter the bio media, where there is bacteria using the oxygen. It therefore stands to reason that you can at some stage have too much bio material, causing your water to go anaerobic? That could be a good thing, come to think of it. Different bacteria will grow, giving you the much sought after anaerobic filter capacity? Somehow I doubt that this will be achieved in this short distance. So, the main point is to have your water as oxygen rich as possible when entering your bio filter and to re-oxygenate it before returning to the tank, or oxygenate it via a spray bar when returning to the tank, or whatever method you fancy.

As usual, I plan to do an overkill with the amount of matrix in the sump. That way I will have maximum bio capacity. If it is too much, it will just mean that the last bit is not used. I will also look at a method of maybe create an area in the middle of it, where I can aerate, further increasing the effectiveness of the matrix.

I have written this, just using you as a sound board. Maybe you can point out mistakes. (Not that I will listen, hehe :laugh:)

[PappaBear]

I also recently built one of these overflows using pipe. My water level is slightly above the level of the T in the pipe. Are your waterlevel exactly level to the T? I don't know if I am doing something wrong.....

[TomK]

PappaBear

Yes, it is slightly higher. But it does not concern me. I just adjust the T hight with a "wire hanger" to the level I want the tank's level at. OK, there is not room for huge adjustment! If I want to do that, I will adjust the pipes lengths as need be.

[PappaBear]

Don't concern me also, just wanted to hear if it was normal..... happy to hear I didn't mess up!!

I just love the applications of gravity with water!!!

[TomK]

O right
So your plumbing comes out the bottom and then back up to maintain your water level and then back down again to your sump. lol Go figure. :)
How is the noise on this ?

RFSwanepoel

I can hardly hear it. But I did read of people complaining of a gurgle noise. I wrote about it above somewhere.

[RFSwanepoel]

Well it seems to work almost like the Durso Standpipes kinda... Would a Ball valve not help with that ?

[fishkeeper]

This is exactly what i want to do is it possible to post pics of the whole set-up including the sump and all the plumbing and steps you took!

[Lowflyer]

TomK I see you only have left 1.5cm at the surface of the sump. I would advise that you drop the water level in your sump to accommodate the extra water when the return pump is switched off.

[Lowflyer]

Sorry, just saw how old this thread is. Oops

[RFSwanepoel]

+1 on that you need at least 5cm clear for water and gravity not to flood your sump and cause huge issues.

[TomK]

is it possible to post pics of the whole set-up including the sump and all the plumbing and steps you took!

Sorry, I did not take pictures as I went along. (Only recently got my Canon!) But it is straight forward. I will see if I can give a diy list to buy and tools needed to make the job easy. I will do it on my thread.

[TomK]

I will do it on my thread.

haha, I see we are on my thread... tsk, tsk

[TomK]

fishkeeper

The best I can do to explain what I have done is by showing pictures of the finished item. So here goes.

This pic shows the heart of the overflow. Everything is sealed with silicone. It is imperative that no air can leak into the system. The other parts do not have to be silicon-ed, as it is either under water or part of the water flowing down to the sump and can not leak.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1588Small.jpg

This picture shows the complete thing, to give you an idea what it is all about. It hang like that on the back of your tank, short end in the tank, long side goes down on the outside into the sump inlet side.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1589Small.jpg

This pic shows the nipple with the air tubing. (Micro irrigation nipple) The nipple and air tubing is sealed with silicone. The nipple screw into the PVC pipe after you drilled a hole into the PVC, slightly thinner than the nipple. To prime the overflow, you pour water into the open pipe. The water seal this side of the pipe and the inlet is the other side, underneath water in the tank. You now suck the air out of the part between these two 'seals'. As soon as you get water in your mouth, all the air is sucked out and you bend the air tubing so it is sealed. I keep it bend like that with a clothes peg. If the water level in the tank is higher than the open part in the T, water starts flowing immediately. This is a crucial point. If it leaks air, the overflow will fail. So make sure it can not leak air! This looks like a siphon, but it is not. It is based on the level of water in the tank and the hight of the overflow into the down pipe. If the level in the tank rise, the level in the system rise. But it can not go higher than the overflow of the down pipe, as when it does, it flows down the pipe to the sump.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1590Small.jpg

Same thing, different angle. Also showing the inlet which is a piece of pipe drilled full of holes, to make sure your fish does not go down the drain! It is blocked at the end, with an end cap.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1591Small.jpg

View from top.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1592Small.jpg

Big picture again, different angle.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1594Small.jpg

Close up of nipple and air tubing.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1597Small.jpg

Optional spray bar that I build. I think you can recognize the parts used.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1596Small.jpg

Essential tools. The cutter is to cut the pipe, unless you want to battle with a hacksaw.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1595Small.jpg

So that is the story. Have fun, I did!

[PappaBear]

I used irrigation polypipe to build mine, and it is working fine.

I really enjoy this design, as you can "syphon" the water from the bottom of your tank, without modifying the tank or drilling any holes.

[TomK]

PappaBear, what is the diameter of the pipe and what is your pump delivering in terms of lt/h ? I would be interested in the actual lt/h, measured with a 1 lt container and stopwatch. The pump ratings is of no use.

Why I ask, is I found with my adjustable pump, I can adjust the water level in my tank by turning the pump up or down. I can push it too high for the 37 mm pipe which then struggle to keep up and the tank level will rise, but stabilize at a higher level and vice versa.

[PappaBear]

TomK I am still busy with my setup, not operational yet. Only built one overflow and tested it on a bucket. I have a big pump, but it will be split into 3 or 4, as I will have multiple tanks on my sump. Have a hectic week at work so won't be able to work on the project again before the weekend.....

[TomK]

PappaBear
Excellent project. Keep us posted and remember the pics!

[fishkeeper]

Thanks so much tomk!!!! I can build that! Just one more question what thickness(diameter) is the pvc pipe you using?

[RFSwanepoel]

U didn't ask me But I would say 50mm


Thanks so much tomk!!!! I can build that! Just one more question what thickness(diameter) is the pvc pipe you using?

[TomK]

Just one more question what thickness(diameter) is the pvc pipe you using?

It is 40mm OD (Outside Diameter) You will see I sometimes talk about 37 mm. That is the ID (Inside Diameter) of the narrowest part in the bends and T-piece. So, effectively your ID is 37 mm. But you buy 40 mm pipe and fittings.

That is what I used. If you have a weaker pump, you can go for a smaller diameter. Do you have your pump yet? If not, let us discuss it before you buy. If you have one, measure the lt p/h by timing how long it takes the pump to fill a container of which the capacity is known, like 1 or 5 lt. Give the seconds it takes to fill this. Hold the container as high as your tanks level and the pump at the level where it will be in the sump. The levels make a huge difference.

[fishkeeper]

No i do not have a pump i am going to be buying one so your help would be greatly aprciated! I also found a 1.8m tank with cabernet for a bargain! R1200 so this is going to be a practice to build a big sump for that tank!

[PappaBear]

1.8m tank with cabernet

Buying a fishtank and getting some wine to sweeten the deal: PRICELESS!!!

[TomK]

No i do not have a pump

Good, look around at what you can get, that suits your budget. Try and find one where you can adjust the flow rate. This comes in handy when you want to adjust something for some reason. Like I do with the water level in my tank. Whether it will work for you, like that, in your case, depends if you (we) can pick the correct diameter pipe for you. Mine was pure luck!

Edit: Do not buy yet. Come tell us your options and their specs. Just remind us again as well, size of tank and sump.

[fishkeeper]

well for now its a going to be a small sump for the 3ft tank! But when i get the bigger tank i'm hopin that a 100lt sump will do the job! As for pumps aslong as building this works me out cheaper than a canister filter its worth it! What size is the tank you runing this set up on?

Cause im just going to be needing a sump that will keep my malawi tank nice and clean! The sump mesurments are 460lx300hx300w is this to small to make a sump out for a 100lt tank?

[TomK]

Your sump will be 41 lt capacity. Sounds good. What is the dimensions of your tank. Your overflow will drain +-60 mm water in case of a power failure. We must work out to what level you can fill your sump to be able to hold this extra water without flooding the room.

[RFSwanepoel]

Build the whole thing with 50mm extra above your highest compartment.

[RFSwanepoel]

Also a thought drill 2 small holes in the pipe inside the tank 15mm under your desired water level this would cause air to flow into the pipe when the water level reaches the holes and you will only lose a MAX of 15mm water flowing back to your sump in the outage or pump failure.

[TomK]

fishkeeper, you also have to decide what the design of your sump is going to be. Are you going the down, up, down and pump out route, or a straight through 'big bore' flow like I did?

Do a drawing showing tank and sump with compartments, so we can see what you want to do.

[TomK]

Also a thought drill 2 small holes in the pipe inside the tank 15mm under your desired water level this would cause air to flow into the pipe when the water level reaches the holes and you will only lose a MAX of 15mm water flowing back to your sump in the outage or pump failure.

Noooo! If you do this, you will break your 'siphon' and when the power comes back on, your overflow will not work and your tank will overflow, your sump pumped dry and pump burned out!

RFS, you are not reading. Go do your homework! lol!

[RFSwanepoel]

LOL I actually missed the point there it's on the return pipe not the overflow pipe. If you don't break the flow on the return line it could suck your tank empty.
OOPSY :)
Not on the out but on the in


Noooo! If you do this, you will break your 'siphon' and when the power comes back on, your overflow will not work and your tank will overflow, your sump pumped dry and pump burned out!

RFS, you are not reading. Go do your homework! lol!

[RFSwanepoel]

Also when you want to buy your return pump
make sure you compensate for head-loss.

Calculator (http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php)

[Singularity]

syphon overflow will lead to flood, maybe it will take a month or a couple of years but syphons is not 100% fail safe, you can only get 100% fail save if you have a drilled tank and an overflow that works with gravity. One example is the build up of micro bubbles in a syphon overflow, which could lead to a complete syphon break over time.

[RFSwanepoel]

+1
I also would rather recommend a skinny overflow...


syphon overflow will lead to flood, maybe it will take a month or a couple of years but syphons is not 100% fail safe, you can only get 100% fail save if you have a drilled tank and an overflow that works with gravity. One example is the build up of micro bubbles in a syphon overflow, which could lead to a complete syphon break over time.

[TomK]

No, it can not suck your tank empty. You do not understand the working of this overflow. You never ever break the siphon, unless you are present and do it intentionally, for some reason. Then you would cut power to your pump as well. The overflow drain your tank to the lowest level in the T junction, then it stops automatically. Once the level in the tank rise higher than the lowest level in the t, the water starts flowing again, like MAGIC ! hehe...

[TomK]

build up of micro bubbles in a syphon overflow

Please explain what you mean by this? Your overflow intake is nowhere close to bubbles. Also understand that this is not a siphon in the traditional sense of the word. It is more like your toilet, but upside down.

Edit: Also see the design of the overflow intake. The intake is via holes on the side, with a solid cap at the bottom. Bubbles can not turn a corner and enter from the side. The suction is relatively very week, because of the area around the pipe.

[RFSwanepoel]

It's just a precaution that is used in almost every single marine set-up I have ever seen.
If the power goes out while you are away from home the return pipe from the pump back to the tank is filed with water and that water gets sucked (Pulled by gravity) back into your Sump if the pump is not running and pushing water to the tank .
This situation obviously depends on how deep your return line goes into your tank, if the outlet is 1cm under water on the return line you don't have a problem (eg: a spry bar) but if you would like it to spry the water back into the tank at a deeper level say half way down this could suck your tank half way empty, This happened to so many marine keepers in the past this is why they all have the 2 little holes on the return line right under the water level.

This has nothing to do with the siphon of the overflow. Once the water hits the sump and flows through the sump the siphon part stops and the Return pump starts. A return pump can have water flowing backwards with enough gravity. Unless it has a one way flow valve type thing.

Also Micro Bubbles are everywhere in water.
Fish and plants can't live without micro bubbles, it's how they breath.
Not bubbles from an air-stone but bubbles that are caused by water movement. and I'm sure this build-up will take a long while before it has any effect but eventually it will unless you make sure it doesn't.
U know like the small tiny little bubbles you get on your skin in the bathtub.





No, it can not suck your tank empty. You do not understand the working of this overflow. You never ever break the siphon, unless you are present and do it intentionally, for some reason. Then you would cut power to your pump as well. The overflow drain your tank to the lowest level in the T junction, then it stops automatically. Once the level in the tank rise higher than the lowest level in the t, the water starts flowing again, like MAGIC ! hehe...

[fishkeeper]

@fishkeeper (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/member.php?u=2687), you also have to decide what the design of your sump is going to be. Are you going the down, up, down and pump out route, or a straight through 'big bore' flow like I did?

Do a drawing showing tank and sump with compartments, so we can see what you want to do.

Well i still have to put all the glass peices in to the "sump" so i want to know what would give me the best filtering? down, up, down and pump out route, or a straight through 'big bore' flow?

[RFSwanepoel]

The down up down will have more head-loss (Not much) coz it works with and against gravity I'd say


Well i still have to put all the glass peices in to the "sump" so i want to know what would give me the best filtering? down, up, down and pump out route, or a straight through 'big bore' flow?

[TomK]

if the outlet is 1cm under water on the return line you don't have a problem (eg: a spry bar) but if you would like it to spry the water back into the tank at a deeper level say half way down this could suck your tank half way empty

You are right and I stand corrected. My return is 1 cm under water for this reason. I thought you meant the other side.

As far as the micro bubbles is concerned, I am not worried. This will take a very very long time, especially as the opening underneath is solid. You are bound to work on the overflow before that happens and reset it when working on it.

[TomK]

I believe in the straight through method. Did you read Profs thread about the 'big bore' principle? I gave a link earlier on for you to read. The massive long thread.

[RFSwanepoel]

lol I figured there was a miscommunication there, :blink:
My bad first post didn't say "Return line" anywhere.



You are right and I stand corrected. My return is 1 cm under water for this reason. I thought you meant the other side.

[fishkeeper]

thats how the up down up down thing works right?

[TomK]

Jip. RFS will be able to point out more how it works. What I have against it, is it increase the velocity of the water in the sump, rushing through your media. The straight through method slow the velocity down and the media and bacteria does a better job. Your water must just be oxygen rich.

See my earlier posts about the dividers. You do not have to go that fancy. Use anything practical to keep the media separate and do not obstruct the flow of water.

[RFSwanepoel]

There is no space for a DSB in there, And that would cause a loss of oxygen (Not such a bad thing)
U'll need to put an air stone in your return chamber...

[RFSwanepoel]

I would also rather go for the straight through.


Jip. RFS will be able to point out more how it works. What I have against it, is it increase the velocity of the water in the sump, rushing through your media. The straight through method slow the velocity down and the media and bacteria does a better job. Your water must just be oxygen rich.

See my earlier posts about the dividers. You do not have to go that fancy. Use anything practical to keep the media separate and do not obstruct the flow of water.

[fishkeeper]

OK and straight through is how?
Yous guys must be getting sick of my 101 questions! Just really want to get it perfect!

[RFSwanepoel]

Like TomK's one.
Mesh type panels instead of compartments, you could maybe use egg crates for this if you don't know someone with a laser cutter or have enough patience to drill all those little holes.


OK and straight through is how?
Yous guys must be getting sick of my 101 questions! Just really want to get it perfect!

[TomK]

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/devider.jpg

Anything like this. Plastic, so it does not oxidise.

I must admit, it is a bit of a challenge if you do not want to spend, like I did. It cost me about R60 per Perspex panel and a further R70 to cut the holes per panel. Or you could find a stiff plastic sheet, cut to size and drill full of holes? The plastic mesh stuff you get in nursery shops is too flimsy. I tried it.

[RFSwanepoel]

U can get egg crates from Dorry's I think, should do the trick just you might have to buy some under gravel mesh/floss stuff (Those flat floss sheets you put on a UGF) to keep your media in their compartments coz an egg crate will probably mix your media due to the huge holes.

Also Check out Maizey Plastics for something that is already full of holes.

[RFSwanepoel]

What is the dimensions you are going for on the sump and Glass thickness?
And how many times do you want to circulate per hour ?

[Singularity]

TomK i agree that the flow speeds up, but the water travels a longer path through the media with the up down method.

[TomK]

What is the dimensions of your tank. Your overflow will drain +-60 mm water in case of a power failure. We must work out to what level you can fill your sump to be able to hold this extra water without flooding the room.

Still waiting on the dimensions of your tank.

[TomK]

but the water travels a longer path through the media with the up down method.

True. I bought into Prof's argument that it is better with the 'big bore'



What is the dimensions you are going for on the sump and Glass thickness?
He gave it already and it is an existing 2 foot tank.

[TomK]

@TomK (http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/member.php?u=1553) I see you only have left 1.5cm at the surface of the sump. I would advise that you drop the water level in your sump to accommodate the extra water when the return pump is switched off.

Lowflyer
Sorry, missed your post. No, I must have been busy doing some experiment when that pic was taken. My actual level in the sump is 80 mm below the rim. It is cutting it very fine! It overflows to about 1 mm from the top of the sump! Tested...

[RFSwanepoel]

Went through your thread 3 times and his own thread and there is no mention of glass thickness anywhere?
Got the dimensions though thanx :)

He gave it already and it is an existing 2 foot tank.

[TomK]

This is the mesh that is not rigid enough. I tried to build a frame for it, but gave up.

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1631Small.jpg

This is the sponge mat RFS is referring to ?

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/IMG_1630Small.jpg

[RFSwanepoel]

Nope it's a lot thinner than that. It's about 2mm thick and it's more like floss really not sponge.
I did a 3D image of a sump at 460lx300hx300w and with a return chamber at 150mm(W), the rest is really small you are looking at 95mm if you have 3 compartments in the Up down Up down method.


This is the sponge mat RFS is referring to ?

[TomK]

Nope it's a lot thinner than that.

I got this from @Jungle Aquatics and it serves the purpose well and give extra mechanical filtering. Amazing how much dirt it collects!

@Jungle Aquatics

[RFSwanepoel]

I'm was talking about if he uses egg crated for the separator panels to just put a thin little piece in after the bio balls or ceramic rings or what ever he might use in there to make sure the ceramic rings stay in their little area and not go through the egg crate to the next little area. Not as a sponge filter:)
The stuff I'm on about would seriously suck at removing anything from your water.
Just to clear that up...



I got this from @JungleAquatic and it serves the purpose well and give extra mechanical filtering. Amazing how much dirt it collects!

[TomK]

Just to clear that up...

OK, he might want to go for that, as the stuff I use is expensive. Where do you get it, what do one call it and price?

[RFSwanepoel]

No clue I think it's the stuff they cover UGF with. I saw it at a non sponsor once and asked him what they use it for and he said it's to put ontop of your UGF under the substrate. Kinda like the floss in those corner filters but a flat sheet of it...


OK, he might want to go for that, as the stuff I use is expensive. Where do you get it, what do one call it and price?

[RFSwanepoel]

OK it's dirty but this is kinda what I'm talking about

http://www.fish-tank-filter.com/images/ag06084-lg.jpg
The stuff looks like that but you can buy it in a sheet.

[Lowflyer]

TomK No worries man. Hahaha! That is cutting it fine but if it works, then that's all good :D

[fishkeeper]

Ok my dimensions on my main tank are 920lx380hx380w

[SamMatt]

Hey guys, on this topic how does having an overflow box prevent your tank from overflowing when the power goes out? its a closed loop and the header is off?

[RFSwanepoel]

TomK I'm sorry for posting this on your thread. It will probably get deleted and I'll removed from TASA.

Apparently I got some bad ratings coz of this post. EEEK Suppose I should prove things like that when posting them.
These are my "Ratings/Reputation"
@ No1, I'm not sure if you where talking about the Siphon break or the bubbles?
RATING 1. "biggest load of BS i have heard in a VERY long time!"
Please visit the link below to see where my "load of BS" came from. If you where talking about the Siphon break.

The small holes in the return line AKA siphon break, Anti Siphon holes.
Link 1.http://theaquariumwiki.com/DIY_Plumbing_101#Anti-Siphon_Holes
Link 2. http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html (http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html)
So IMO I'm right about this.

The other 2 or 3 (depends on, if he/she was also talking about the Bubbles and not the siphon break)
I fully understand why I got a bad rep on that, and I appologise for my lack of info and asumtions.
"Do you believe the stuff you write?" No But I do believe the stuff other people write, silly me.
and
"Utter Hogwash I'm afraid...." Thank you for pionting that out.

This is how I got so badly missinformed.:embarrest:

1.I read this a while ago somwhere.
"Micro bubbles are miniature gas bubbles of less than 50 microns diameter in water.
The micro bubbles, which mostly contain oxygen or air, can remain suspended in the water for an extended period.
Gradually, the gas within the micro bubbles dissolves into the water and the bubbles disappear."

So according to my obviously misinformed opinion Micro bubbles are not the only or primary way for Oxygen to get into water but they do contribute.
And Air stones do get sold for this perpous all over the place.

2. The Sump System. The part they call the "Bubble Trap(baffles to reduce micro-bubbles in water)" Seems to me (I'm obviously wrong) by installing one of these in your sump you can created an Anaerobic area (low oxygen inviroment)for Anaerobic Organisms to grow in.
So I assumed :stupido2: Micro Bubbles also carry oxygen into your water. Apperantly they have nothing to do with Oxygen in your water. My Bad :embarrest:

Thanx Anonamous 1, 2 and 3 and fellow TASA users for helping me understand this all better.

I will be keeping my misinformed input which is not needed or wanted to myself in the future (we can't have the blind leading the blind). I'll stop posting things other than my own pix and questions.
If I don't get from TASA for this post. :flute:



It's just a precaution that is used in almost every single marine set-up I have ever seen.
If the power goes out while you are away from home the return pipe from the pump back to the tank is filed with water and that water gets sucked (Pulled by gravity) back into your Sump if the pump is not running and pushing water to the tank .
This situation obviously depends on how deep your return line goes into your tank, if the outlet is 1cm under water on the return line you don't have a problem (eg: a spry bar) but if you would like it to spry the water back into the tank at a deeper level say half way down this could suck your tank half way empty, This happened to so many marine keepers in the past this is why they all have the 2 little holes on the return line right under the water level.

This has nothing to do with the siphon of the overflow. Once the water hits the sump and flows through the sump the siphon part stops and the Return pump starts. A return pump can have water flowing backwards with enough gravity. Unless it has a one way flow valve type thing.

[TomK]

Ok my dimensions on my main tank are 920lx380hx380w

Your liter capacity in the tank is 138 lt, with a 41 lt sump. Your overflow in tank from full till stop will be about 5.5 cm. (From experience with my overflow with bottom of T at 7cm) That 6 cm in the tank represent 20 lt. You must therfore leave space in your sump when running at capacity for 20 lt. Therefore, when your tank is full, you can have 20 lt in your sump, representing a height of 15 cm, which is half. So, when running at full capacity, your sump should never be over the half level and when you have a power failure, it will be full to the brim. Therefore run it at slightly below half, for a safety margin, say at 13 cm. Now you know have to work with and can plan your compartments and media, your pump must physically fit in the compartment under 14 cm water and remember, the suction creates a vortex, so the pump inlet must be as deep as possible under water, or it will suck air from the surface. I would fit an elbow to the inlet, pointing down. We must now work out what the volume of water flow in the overflow will be, to match it with a pump. If the pump is too strong, it will suck your sump dry. I will cover that in my next post.

Anyone out there seeing a mistake, please point it out so we can discuss.

[TomK]

I made a quick visit to the local hardware/plumbing/irrigation shop to to see what one's options is. Electrical conduit is no good, as the elbows and T's is not suitable. In plumbing you get 40 mm and 50 mm. In irrigation you get a lot of sizes, but the fittings is huge and is going to make the overflow too bulky. If I have to go smaller than 40 mm, I will go for the 20 mm irrigation with the black/green fittings and class 3 pipe.

So you know if you go 40 mm (38 mm ID) like I did, you need a 1500 lt/h pump that actually deliver 600 lt/h. If you go stronger than this, your overflow can not keep up and your tank will overflow and the sump will run dry. (my pump is adjustable 1500-3000 lt/h)

If you go 20 mm irrigation we look at:
Same velocity at 146.6 mm/second
That delivers 165 lt/h

So, with 20 mm overflow, your pump must not exceed 160 lt an hour. (Or you can build two overflows!) With a 80 cm head, the pump must be rated in the region of 320-360 lt/h. These are not exact figures and I therefore recommend an adjustable pump, if you want to fine tune the level in the tank.

Tank volume will be turned around 1.1 times per hour, so all the water will go through the sump about every 4 hours.

For those interested, I use this calculator (http://www.1728.org/flowrate.htm) for diameter/velocity/flow rate.

Pumps that I will recommend:



Eheim Compact 600
R 320.00
150-600 lt/h


Eheim Compact 1000
R 400.00
150-1000 lt/h

[TomK]

TomK I'm sorry for posting this on your thread.

I just want to say in the open, I do not agree with what has happened, I hate the negative feedback system and I sympathize with RFS and all the hundreds of members who do not post because they are scared of this type of thing.

RFS, it is OK, but if you want to discuss further, please open a new thread.

[TomK]

Update on the progress. Dividers silicon-ed in. Media placed. Already learning from my mistakes. This sump is just too long. Or I could have spaced the compartments better and have a nice holding tank for whatever I need space for outside of the main tank, fish, plants etc. Would have been nice if I had space for more hight. In the open compartment I can employ chemical filtration, or more mechanical, or I can move the matrix there and have space for plants etcetera.

And yes, I went way overboard on the matrix. I bought for future use so decided to employ it here so long. Why not, it is not as if it is getting exhausted?

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/sump3Small.jpg

[TomK]

I am thinking of experimenting with a venturi on my return line to prime the overflow. But first I want to know or find out the principal behind a venturi. Can someone help? I have two filters at the moment with venturi on them. The one suck air as expected, so you can connect an air line to it and blow bubbles into the water with the pump. The other one squirts water out of the venturi. What is causing the two to behave differently? The one that squirts water is on top of the pipe and the one that suck air on the side of the pipe. Is this the difference?

You can see the leaf being sucked to the venturi.
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/suck.jpg

You can see the squirt of water straight up in the air.
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k548/TomK59/Overflow/squirt.jpg