Fish lying on aquarium floor [Archive] - Tropical Aquariums South Africa

RaD

31-05-2009, 19:50

Hi All,

I've been having a rough time with my tank so far and this is my third attempt at introducing some fish. Today it was 6 Mollies and a Betta.

There were looking fine for about 4 hours, eating and what not. But now all of them are lying on the aquarium floor. Some are "wriggling" in one place and other are motionless. All alive still.

My pH in the water is around 8, a bit high but as far as I know that shouldn't be too much of a problem for Mollies. The ammonia and nitrite levels are also negligible and I did a 25% water change last night. The temperature is 26-27 degrees C.

Please help. I don't know what I'm doing wrong here. :( :( :(

Zoom

31-05-2009, 20:04

Hi Rad,

I'm probably not going to be able to give you any answers, but I know the questions that other people will probably ask you...

How long has the tank been cycling?
I'm assuming the other 2 attempts at introducing fish ended up with them all dying?
Does the fish come from a reputable source? (Have all 3 batches come from the same place?)
When the last 2 attempts failed, did you do any water changes? If you did, how much, and how long did you wait before re-trying?

To me it sounds like either (1) the fish are unhealthy from source. (2) your water has some kind of bacterial infection or something in it. (3) the fish are too stressed during the relocation.

Just on a side note... When introducing new fish into a tank, I prefer not to feed those fish for 2 days. It helps with the stress levels, and keeps them calm. Also a good idea to turn lights off when introducing fish.

I also only found out today that when introducing fish... If possibly, do not introduce the LPS water into your tank. Rather quarantee the fish, and slowly, (preferable over a period of a few days) change the water from the LPS water to the water from your set up tank. What I do, because I don't have a quarantee tank, I put the bagged fish into my tank to adjust to temp. The during the course of the day I add my tank water to the bag, until I eventually have nearly 90% my water to 10% LPS water. Then I simply net the fish out the bag... and then toss away the LPS water.

Don't know if anyone esle practises this, or their ideas on it, but it seems the next best thing to quaranteing.

RaD

31-05-2009, 20:14

Ok, complete story:

First Attempt:
3 small angels, 4 Corys. Did well for a day, I then decided to add some wood from a LPS. I woke up the next morning with them all dead.
[fish from exotic aquariums and pets in Boksburg]

Second Attempt:
Completely drained the tank and put new water in. However I forgot that the heater needed to be off, so I broke that and I only noticed the water was ice cold once I brought a new batch of fish home from the LPS. Rushed out to get another heater and a thermometer (i know, i know) for each side of the tank, but I was unable to save them.
[fish from VIP Pets in Cresta]

Third Attempt:
4x Otocinclus, from Mr. Pet in Sancton City, I didn't expect these to do very well as the store is not great and the assistant didn't really know what she was doing when she was catching them. They were very stressed by the time I got them home.

Fourth Attempt:
This current one, which also seems to be failing horribly.

The tank has been in operation for 3 weeks now and as I say, the water chemistry seems fine. I'm wondering about chlorine poisoning? I did use the dechlorinating agent and it has been standing for a while...

I don't want to lose another set of fish...

I have had some Sweetflag in the tank the whole time, I dont know if that will make a difference? And I'm using silica sand as a substrate.

Plantgeek.net says this about Sweetflag:

***NOT a true aquarium plant*** This plant will die if kept submerged and pollute the tank. Can be used on the edge of ponds or kept "feet wet" to help filter extra nutrients out of the water.

Think I just found the reason!

brentnorm

31-05-2009, 20:22

You really need to let the cycle complete before introducing livestock. What type of filtration are you using?

RaD

31-05-2009, 20:30

I was under the impression that if the nitrites and ammonia were low then the cycling was complete. Am I wrong? I'm using a canister filter.

brentnorm

31-05-2009, 20:38

Those levels can go up and down a couple of times before the cycle is complete. Did you help it along at all by introducing some cycle or stability. This would speed it up. How long did you let the tank run before putting any livestock in? Every time you do a huge waterchange the cycle starts again.

rogerrabbit

31-05-2009, 20:46

What people forget is you cannot completely cycle your filter without fish, and even if your tank is stable with its inhabitants for ten years, the moment you increase your bioload the tank goes through another cycle. I think something is poisoning your water. Either the maid is spraying something close to your tank(they just love to spray "windolene" on the tank), the tank is to close to the kitchen, some detergents get into the water somehow or might be your mystery plant. Start with the plant, toss it and put in fresh water, run for a couple of days and replace the water again, check for any possible causes of poisoning.

Zoom

31-05-2009, 20:50

Hi Rad,

Not necessarily. Remember that Ammonia and Nitrites is caused by the breaking down of fish faeces. Now if you don't have any fish, then obviously the ammonia and nitrites will be low and appear as if the water is safe.

I would strongly suggest cycling the tank for 10 to 14 days BEFORE adding fish. And cycle it with a product called "Stability" from Seachem. Very good chemical in helping establish the filter.

Also, what type of filter are you running?

Take out that plant. Rather get proper aquatic plants.

Another thing I'd advise. No matter how big the tank is... start off with only a few fish. If you introduce too many at once, the nitrites SPIKE because the bacteria hasn't really established itselt in the filter and gravel. So start with a few and add to the tank on a weekly basis until you have what you want. (Although you ALWAYS want more)

Just a really stupid question- but could be the answer: What size is the tank, and is it getting any oxygen into the water.

This is done in 3 ways: (1) plants -but generally a LOT of plants needed
(2) an air stone with air pump
(3) the water tension being broken at all.

There is so much that could be causing the problem. (although the broken heater was the definately the reason for number 2 batch)

What people forget is you cannot completely cycle your filter without fish, and even if your tank is stable with its inhabitants for ten years, the moment you increase your bioload the tank goes through another cycle. I think something is poisoning your water. Either the maid is spraying something close to your tank(they just love to spray "windolene" on the tank), the tank is to close to the kitchen, some detergents get into the water somehow or might be your mystery plant. Start with the plant, toss it and put in fresh water, run for a couple of days and replace the water again, check for any possible causes of poisoning.

I've seen some people actually cycle their tank with a dead fish for the first 3 days. Then take the fish out and carry on cycling for a further 7 days. For some reason... they NEVER have that nitrite SPIKE that I always have with my new set up.

brentnorm

31-05-2009, 20:58

Perhaps you should leave the tank running for a week and then get a couple of black mollies( these are very hardy fish) and then let the tank run another week or two before adding more livestock. Dose Stabiity every day for the first week.

veegal

31-05-2009, 21:04

When fish 'wriggle' it is nine times out of ten due to water conditions. Best thing to do as soon as you see a fish doing this is to do a water change and monitor the water conditions. I think as has been said you need to slowly introduce your fish and that, combined with the use of stability should hopefully sort your problems out. I'm pretty certain that your fish loss, except for the second batch, was caused by too many fish being introduced at once into a new tank.

When introducing new fish you always want to quarantine if possible. Also don't forget to acclimatise the fish to the new tank's temperature etc before releasing them. And NEVER add the water from the bag into your tank - a sure fire way of looking for unnecessary trouble. Rather catch the fish from the bag and put them into the tank OR you can gently hold the net over a bucket and 'pour' the fish out of the bag and into the net and then into your tank. This is far less stressful on the fish than you trying to catch them with a net whilst they are still in the packet.

JaguarCichlid

31-05-2009, 21:32

I always try to do water changes with rain water. then top up with aged tap water. Try get some filtered water from a local "Purified Water" shop, or collect rain water from yor gutters, just filter it before it goes into the bulk tank, (bird cr@p, dust etc can cause a problem)

***NOT a true aquarium plant*** This plant will die if kept submerged and pollute the tank. Can be used on the edge of ponds or kept "feet wet" to help filter extra nutrients out of the water.

get rid of it, i'm trying a bit of aquaponics on my tanks as an extra nitrate remover, i will keep you posted as the failures occur.... the daisies seem to be enjoying it, but still early days for a hard and fast result, but they lasted of 2 weeks sofar, so i might be onto something....... i refer to my post http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?t=486 where Prof shot my theory out of the water...... (Thanks Prof, I did learn something from you....) But i will perservere and learn while i do it.....

All that i have done it put my return water through a piece of ducting running down the length of the tank and filled it with a gravel, then planted the plants in there, with the outlet flowing into the tank to create a waterfall effect...... but the daisies make the wife happy, so mmmmm who am i to argue.....

RaD

31-05-2009, 22:11

Sigh, this is terrible. What should my next course of action be? Assuming these fish all die? Do I drain the tank completely? Replace substrate? leave for another a further three weeks? Use "stability" or "cycle" anyway for a while? I have been acclimitising the fish, but I've also added the water from the LPS. I think it may be possible that the Betta survives, he seems miserable, but not quite as miserable as the rest.

Also, when you talk about a water change, what % is it? I'd guess 25-50%

I just feel so awful about killing all these fish. Do you guys think I should persevere or throw in the towel?

RaD

31-05-2009, 22:23

As of right now:

Nitrite - 0.3mg/l
Ammonia - 0mg/l

Is there no chance this could be a disease?

brentnorm

31-05-2009, 22:30

There is always a chance but usually a disease would show some symtems and not immediate death. I would start dosing with stability and not add any livestock for two weeks.

Where are you situated ?

RaD

31-05-2009, 22:43

I'm in Paulshof.

So, purchase "stability" dose for two weeks. not add any more fish.
Then after that how can I tell if this won't happen again?

brentnorm

31-05-2009, 22:55

Sorry, didn't see you were in JHB. Try the stability first. It's made by Seachem and is a very good product. Also try not to do more than a 30% water change at a time.

veegal

01-06-2009, 06:11

Stability is only used for 7 days to begin with and then with large water changes or once a month thereafter. It is an expensive product but a REALLY good product. Don't worry too much that you added the LFS water, it doesn't sound like a disease because it happened far too quickly. Do a 30% water change and start with the stability straight away.

Zoom

01-06-2009, 08:54

Hey Rad,

Well, I guess you have got your answers. If it were myself, I would start right from the beginning. I'd take ALL the water out, rinse the gravel out, rinse the filter material, and restart from scratch. It sounds to me as if there is something out in your water, but just to be sure there is no virus or bacterial infection, I'd start again.

It is definately worth starting with the 'Stability'. It is a little pricey (abour R100.00p/bottle depending on where you get it). API also make a fantastic product that I use... It's called Stress Coat. It does a number if things.

(1) Dechlorinates water
(2) Helps remove Ammonia and Nitrites (Not it's primary function though... so don't rely on this... rather rely on plants to do this, as well as your weekly water changes)
(3) Helps 'unstress' fish. (Fantastic for when you introduce new fish. Works well to de-stress your existing tank from stressing with the new additions. And helps keep the new fish from stressing due to the relocation).

It's also a very pricey chemical... But I haven't gone without it! It also keeps the slimy protective coat over the fish, which helps the fish fight against bacteria and infections.

That is my suggestion. I will admit that I have only been keeping fish for 4 months, but that is my suggestion based on all the reading I have done.
You could also take Veegal's advice. He (My appologies if Veegal is a she... :) ) has been keeping fish a lot longer than I have... and has definately earned my respect with his advice.

RaD

01-06-2009, 10:23

small_fry

01-06-2009, 10:49

sorry to hear this...so sad...

if i were you i would disinfect everything with a high conenctrated dose of spirit vinegar and let stand a little while. then rinse with hose pipe until smell of vinegar is gone. resetup and let cycle for 3 weeks while monitoring water params. you can try some salt...just take the plants out...sounds like poisoning to me with the reddish tint on the tales.

brentnorm

01-06-2009, 14:01

This morning 4 of the 6 Mollies passed away, as well as the Betta. I noticed that the one molly had reddish "bruising" near the tail on its side.

I dont expect the other 2 to survive, based on what you guys have said. If they dont I'll do a complete water change, rinse the substrate, wash the plants, rinse the filter, buy stability, and try again 1 last time.

Question is, if the last 2 Mollies are still alive this afternoon, what can I do to keep them alive?

Have you tried putting some salt in the water? I would go to my LFS and ask them for a bag of salt for your freshwater tank and put some of that in as well as doing the Stability dosing before going to drastic measures. I am sure i fyou dose the stability for a wile everything will steele down. How are your remaining 2 fish doing ?

RaD

01-06-2009, 14:18

I'm still at work so I don't know yet. Let me see how they are doing when I get home and then I'll make a decision.

rogerrabbit

01-06-2009, 16:45

Still sounds like some form of poisoning to me, nitrate or otherwise. What size is your tank? I would suggest you prepare water with all relevant treatments as suggested in your dedicated tank bucket( the one you made sure nobody uses to mop the floors with) and do 80% water changes daily for a couple of days until fish look better.

Zoom

01-06-2009, 17:21

Make sure no one is using any aerosal sprays in the room where your tank is. (Deodorant/furniture polish/Spray and cook etc).

Rogertabbit touched on a VERY good point. The bucket u use to fill the tank and take water out HAS to be 100% dedicated to your fish. I.E It cannot be used for anything else. NO detergant or any 'non-fish' chemicals should be used in this container.

RaD

01-06-2009, 18:45

1 and a half fish still alive. Looking very miserable. There are no poisons being introduced externally, I'm very careful about that. Bucket is also dedicated.

Gonna do a 50% water change now. I don't have anything to keep water in besides the bucket. And it's a 3ft tank.

Should I rinse the filter too?

rogerrabbit

01-06-2009, 19:06

I would say yes, clean out the filter. What type of filter is it? Did you toss the plant?

RaD

01-06-2009, 19:15

Tossed the plant, just did a 50% water change, rinsed the filter (canister). Black Molly, the previously sad one, looks happier now, but White Molly is not great...

rogerrabbit

01-06-2009, 19:40

What filter media is in the canister?

RaD

01-06-2009, 19:56

Some sponge type thing thats made for it, and then some charcoal bits.

White Molly swimming around now, little sluggish but almost normal I'd say. Black Molly still got not much fight left.

RaD

02-06-2009, 08:45

brentnorm

02-06-2009, 08:54

Both fish still alive this morning, looking a bit better. I hope they survive. Sent the fiance to get some Stability today. Please confirm if I should add this or not. I'll do another water change this evening and hopefully I can save them!

Glad to hear things are looking up. I would definately dose the stabiity for a week just to help your filter along. Just remember if you clean out everything in your filter you are killing all the good bacteria too.

veegal

02-06-2009, 09:24

Good to hear, hopefully you'll save those fishies :) Yip, stability should be added as soon as you can, just follow the dosage directions on the bottle. When you do start getting more fish to replace those that you lost, please remember to not buy them all at once as you'll have more chance of causing havoc with the bioload that way. Keep us informed please.

Fish Fantasy

02-06-2009, 11:06

Hi Rad! We are in the same boat, i also had a molly that was always sitting on the floor of the tank where all the others were fine and dandy and last night i found her floating on the top of the water belly up dead as a door nail. All my water conditions were also ok so i also don't know what happened. It's a mystery!!!!!!

Zoom

02-06-2009, 11:16

Rad,

DEFINATELY start the Stability ASAP. Follow the dosage instructions on the bottle. When you "rinse" your filter medium, please bear in mind that we never rinse it in clean water.

Syphone out a bucket of water from your tank, and simply squeeze the filter medium in this syphoned out water 2 or 3 times, and then put it back. You should NEVER have a fully cleaned filter, and when you do change the filter floss and stuff in the filter, NEVER change more than 50% of the material at once. The majority of your bacteria grow in the filter, and if you rinse in clean water, the chlorine kills the bacteria... and you don't want to do that.

Charcoal in the filter is mainly used to clear up the water, and to take medication OUT of the water when you are finished medicating any sick fish. I keep charcoal in my filter as personal preference, but a lot of people actually recommend not to have it in. Only when necessary.

Might be an idea to take the charcoal out- how does everyone else feel about that?

RaD

02-06-2009, 11:25

Yip, read all about rinsing the filter medium, so no worries there.

I'm thinking that if there is some sort of poison from the stupid plant, then the charcoal might help?

Fiance says the fish are doing well now. So fingers crossed

Zoom

02-06-2009, 11:32

I'm thinking that if there is some sort of poison from the stupid plant, then the charcoal might help?

Fiance says the fish are doing well now. So fingers crossed

True... Maybe keep it in for now. The charcoal only lasts about a month, 2 at most, so I wouldn't stress too much about leaving it in.

We're holding thumbs for you. Nothing more frustrating that trying a new hobby and it doesn't work out. Looking after fish can be SO rewarding. I often sit and stare at the fish tank when I'm suppose to be watching the tv... it's so much more relaxing!

Fish Fantasy

02-06-2009, 11:37

Yip! sounds like poisening but can't be 100% sure without water tests. If you still have remaining fish and don't want to loose them you could take them out of the tank and put them into a clean tank or fish bowl after aclimating them of course and then use a liquid called Sera Toxivec this will help save the rest of you fish. I used to sleep next to this stuff at one stage. But please read the instructions carefully because if abused it can cause problems with your cycle.

Fish Fantasy

02-06-2009, 12:03

I do the same thing just sit and watch the fish instead of watching tv, the cool thing is i have my 3ft corner unit in my bed room so i watch them before i go to sleep. The best stress reliever ever!!!!!

Carping

02-06-2009, 12:20

I'm very glad to hear there are poeple out there that is just as "crazy" as me. Many nights I don't even bother to put on the TV. Just switch on the radio and sit back and watch my "kids" play in the tank

Fish Fantasy

02-06-2009, 12:28

Yip just as crazy no doubt about that!!! hee! hee! hee!

RaD

02-06-2009, 18:36

Both looking much happier today. But no water in Paulshof tonight, it's wonderful. So glad I live in one of the biggest cities in Africa. Fiance couldnt get away from varsity today so I will have to pop out at lunch tomorrow and get some stability.

brentnorm

02-06-2009, 21:14

Really glad to hear things are getting better. It will just keep getting better once you have doses that stability.

RaD

03-06-2009, 18:12

Both fish are alive and well it seems. They are feeding like monsters which is always a good sign I think. Bought some Cycle today, couldn't find any Stability. So hopefully that will keep them well.

Thank you all for your support and advice.

Zoom

04-06-2009, 08:53

Great to hear that RaD.

Cycle sounds about as good as the next best thing to Stability. The names sounds as if it knows what to do.

Keep checking your water perameters.

After a week or so, you can possibly start introducing a few more fish. Don't over do it though. Your current bacteria colony will establish itself according to the waste produced by 2 fish. So if you chuck in another 6, you will throw the balance out completely again. Take time at adding fish... you never stop buying... trust me, every 5th line on my bank statement shows me in a pet store somewhere.

Add slowly, and enjoy the fish.

Fish Fantasy

04-06-2009, 09:05

Hi Zoom! Your bank statement sounds like mine every 5th line has the name of a pet store in it. This hobbie is very addictive! But love every minute of it!:bigsmile:

Hi Brentnorm! This stability you guys are talking about what is it and what is the full name of it? I want to have a look at it over the weekend. Also i need to know if i have a 256lt tank give or take a few liters how much charcoal must I use to remove the toxins effectively?