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Hi Guys,
My dear Angel fish passed onto better life about 2 weeks ago, and the tank is just not the same without him.
I've now found out that they are happiest in groups of three or more.
COULD I introduce a few Angels into my current community with the following tank mates:
19 Neons (I know these might end up as live food one day... but that doesn't phase me too much)
5 Zebra Danio's
2 Guppies
4 Black widow
7 Pristella
6 Cory cats
3 Swordtails (1male, 2 female)
My previous Angel was fine wih all the fish, except I've added the swords and neons now since his passing... so not sure how they will react to one another?
Add 3 or 4 angels they should be fine - If you wanna drive down to CT tommorrow I got 3 nice ones for you :blink1:
It should be fine but watch out for the guppies - they are sometimes fin nippers, same with the zebra danios although that is usually if you don't have them in a group. You MAY not lose your neons when the Angels grow up. I've often heard that if Angels are raised with their community tank mates they are less likely to eat THOSE fish when they get bigger. I say those fish because if you, apparently, add say another 2 neons once the angels are larger they will most likely eat the new fish. As I've said, I've often heard this but never tried it myself so it'll be interesting to hear how it goes with you :)
Fish Fantasy
02-06-2009, 11:20
Yes 3-4 Angels will be fine, you have a nice variaty there and they should fit in nicely just watch those little fin nippers eg: guppies & black widows they also known to fin nip from time to time.
I use to have 2 Angels together in one of my tanks, and then at one point caught them "kissing" each other. I read that the liplocking was a result of them being 2 males and thus had issues with one another. I subsequently separated them into 2 separate tanks. But now if they aren't happy on their own, I'll need to get some more. My question is thus, how do you sex angels? I want to make sure that I only get females for each of the males.
Furthermore, can I get any type of Angel i.e. does the colouring have to match that of the males?
I have read that it is a bit difficult to sex young angels. When they get older, the males develop a bump on the "forehead". When spawning gender can be determined by breeding tubes. A female has a round "tear-drop" shaped breeding tube and a male has a cone shaped breeding tube. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Hi it is almost impossible to sex angels unless you can you can see the breeding tubes - the female ovipositor is cone shaped and comes to a point - The male is round like the end of a tube. NOTE : the breeding tubes only stick out 1-3mm so dont expect a LONG tube.
Some fallacies -
The ones with red eyes are males - NOT A CHANCE
The Bump on the forehead - MAYBE SOMETIMES
The curve between mouth and ventral fins - MAYBE WITH A PROTRACTER AND RULER
The female is fatter looking head on - YES BUT MAKE SURE THEY HAVE NOT JUST EATEN
Lance the 'lip locking' is not necessarily an indication that they are both males. It could be but then again it could also be a male and female testing the strength of one another for mating purposes. Were they always aggressive towards one another? What was their behaviour like towards one another before the lip locking began?
Just to confuse you further -
It also happens that 2 females will pair and will lay eggs with the one female doing dummy fertilisation runs when the other female lays..
So Angels are not going to make it easy for us humans :bigsmile:
LOL! Darn, so they might have been getting ready to do some funk and then I came along and split them up?
They were relatively peaceful before they started liplocking. I just thought that they came of age and battled for territory.
I'll stick the 2 of them back together and see what happens.
If they are 2 males, would they ever kill each other? If I get at least 2 more, will this make them all happier?
Lance - they haveto establish the pecking order, once they have done that things calm down (But never stop) The more you have the better it gets for the last guy in the pecking order..
If they were peaceful before they started liplocking then they could be a pair. The pecking order should have been sorted out way before that. If it were me I'd put them back together again and watch them. If they start cleaning leaves etc then get ready for babies.
They will very seldom kill each other, but could cause a little damage. Wait and see whether they are a pair before buying more - you may soon have more than you know what to do with :)
How large are they?
Thanks for the useful advice folks. I'll put them together tonight.
At a guess, I would say they are about 6-7cm excl fins.
If they do spawn, I doubt they'd survive in my community tank....but I'll see what happens when they're together.
On the subject of babies, I found 2 fry in my tank last night while siphoning the sand :p. The one got chowed quickly, while the other went and hid in the plants. I think that it was the swordtail babies.
So anyway, I placed the one angel into my other tank with the other angel, and they both seemed to get along. They both immediately got together and swam together.
What started to hack me was that my swordtail started nipping the fins of the angel that was reintroduced into the tank. When I saw the angel again this morning, the tailfin was shredded. I then took the swordtail out and chucked into one of my other tanks.
I didn't know that the swordtail was a nipper. Or do you guys think that this is related to the fact that I found a couple of fry the other night? Maybe the daddy is defending its brood?
Swordtails, like guppies, do not defend their brood - they eat them :) He was probably trying to let the bigger than him angel know that HE owns the tank......or should I say OWNED the tank. I'm now more sure than ever that you have an angel pair there....let me know when they start cleaning leaves etc :)
Stupid swordtail. I wish the Angel would fight back though. I'll keep the sword out for about a week and then put him back. Hopefully by then the angel will re-establish itself in the tank and the sword will feel like a visitor and be humbled.
I think when you took out the Angel, the Sword tail became dominant tank mate, and thus the re-introduction of the Angel (which might have originally been the dominant) upset the hierarchy.
Once again....stupid swordtail.
He's lucky to be alive. One morning I found him on the floor. I thought that he was dead but when I picked him up, he started flapping around.
One morning I found him on the floor. I thought that he was dead but when I picked him up, he started flapping around.
Maybe he's an attention seeker.... LOL
Okay, so it appears that my 2 angels are a couple. The one, obviously female, is laying eggs on a piece of mopani wood.
Now what? :bigsmile:
Hey very cool LanceP - Now you leave them - in about 3 days you will see they become wrigglers but will still be on the mopani - in about 6 days they will become free swimming babies - Hopefully the parents will be able to keep a few alive..
Dont try and take them out of the tank - if you disturb the pair now you may interrupt the couple and they may never spawn again. If you leave them and the eggs get eaten ( by the angels or other fish ) all is still good. Let them spawn again. They should spawn every 7-21 days.
After about 5 spawns I would then move them to a breeding tank.
BTW in my second reply I swapped male and female around - The male has the cone shaped tube and the female the pipe shaped one..
Thanks Zafgak, this is very cool. The female is still laying the eggs. I guesstimate about 140 eggs so far! Is the male supposed to be fertilising the eggs as the female lays them, or will he only do his end of the deal after she's done. At the moment, he's not doing anything.
How long is the breeding season? Surely they won't spawn every 7-21 days forever?
The male usually follows behind the female fertilising the eggs straight away. If they are in a community tank then he may go fertilise a little after the female (sometimes after she has laid approximately three rows). Check to see whether their breeding tubes are out and make sure you have a male and female there. The females breeding tube is alot bigger and fatter than the males. The males comes to a point almost.
Don't be upset if they eat their eggs within a day of laying.....some angels take quite a bit of time before they realise that if they eat their eggs there won't be any offspring :D. If they do manage to resist the urge to eat their eggs and the eggs hatch - keep a watch out because the parents will move the wrigglers around the tank all the time.
Every pair of breeding angels I have spawn an average every 7-9 days as long as they are not with their babies.
Thanks Veegal, It appears to be 1 female, and 1 male. The female's ovipositor is quite obvious, where's the male's organ is more of a little bump.
My angel doesn't lay the eggs in rows...she just dumps them all over the place. within a 8 square cm area.
I won't be upset if they chow the eggs. The other fish will surely have a go at them
I went to have a look at what was happening 20 minutes after the lights went out and found all the eggs gone. I guess angels do not see well in the dark, and thus could not protect its eggs. Shame, I feel so sorry for the Angel coz she spent several hours laying those eggs and protecting them, and then they were all gone within 20 minutes.
Should I have left the lights on?
I usually leave a small night light on in the room when my Angels have spawned, even if they are not in a community tank. I'd let them spawn once more in the community tank and then move them to their own tank. They will sometimes eat their own eggs if they cannot protect them as they would rather have the protein than let the other fish benefit from it I guess :D
They'll probably lay again soon though - in a week or two if mine are anything to go by.
Pity - but be consoled by the fact that unless they are wild angels - it can take up to 7 spwans or more before thay learn not to eat the eggs... - at least you know they are a pair and will spawn again soon
It's all good. I'll leave a light on next time. Assuming that one day the babies do survive...what do I do with them? Give them to a LPS? I would assume that I cannot keep them all together coz they're all brothers and sisters?
Yip sell them to you LFS or swop for store credit :D
You keep the ones you like and offer the others for sale here :)
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