Angelfish fry question

[MItchell]

Hello,

Ive got a pair of angels that laid eggs a week ago but then the eggs got eaten. I believe that they will spawn again soon. Ive watched youtube videos on breeding them and caring for their fry, I noticed that in all of the videos that everyone with angelfish fry use a bare bottom tank with daily 15 - 75% water changes. My pair is currently housed in a 220L planted aquarium with 50% RO water. I think the waste left behind by the other fish and some dying plants will make the water quality too low for the standard of angelfish fry. I cant collect enough RO water to make these regular water changes for such a big tank. I also cant collect enough rain water either.

I can set up a 50L bare bottom just for them. The filter will have no time to mature (Is this neccessary if large water changes are done so often?). At some point I will need to move the pair to the 50L, what would be the best time to do this? Before they lay eggs or when the eggs are laid (I want to keep the eggs with the parents so parents and eggs will be moved together)? I already have a existing 50L bare bottom that is filled with non-dechlorinated tap water and a cycled filter.

What would be my best option?
-To let the parents breed and rear their fry in the 220L
-After they have laid their eggs to move the parents and eggs to either the cycled tap water tank or a newly set up tank with RO water.
-To move the parents to either the cycled tap water tank or a newly set up tank before they lay eggs.

If I should move them to a newly set up tank then what should the ratio of RO water to tank water from the 220L be (remember that the 220L tank is made up of 50% RO water + 50% dechlorinated tap water and has been cycled with plants and fish for about a month)?

Thanks for reading my essay :-)
Mitch

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Mitchell,

I breed angels on an ongoing basis and I try to do it the natural way, in other words that the parents raise their fry so I support your approaches here.

Forget about the bare bottom tanks, this is not necessary, I mean, fishes in nature also do not breed on glass bottom rivers......!

Angelfish do not require the regime of these water changes as you have explained, that is excessive. If you can remove the plant waste as far as possible, just by taking it out of the tank and then syphoning off as much of the waste as possible, I think that this should be enough.

I also think that the 220 litre tank will be much better than the 50 litre tank, that is just too small, I don't breed angels in less that 120 liter tanks.

So, leave the parents in the 220 l tank. Don't move eggs and parents, the parents will just eat the eggs, you will upset them completely.

I would try to see if they have success in your 220 litre tank and if not, just repeat the water changes with the RO water and even some normal aerated tapwater, and I am sure that you will have success in breeding them.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

Thanks for the advice, you have convinced me. First I will need to move my bristlenose and cory's to the sump so that they dont eat the eggs again. I thought the 50L would be fairly ok because the pair is still fairly young around 5cm. Its actually quiet a suprise that they are breeding so young, I have a larger 12cm pair that have never bred before because the male is larger than female and almost kills her when I put them together.

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Mitchell,

The corys are actually fine just remove the ancistrus as they will eat the eggs. Also you must leave on a light in the room in which the tank is so that they can see the eggs at night. It is not necessary to keep the aquarium lights on, but the angels must be able to see the eggs at night or less they will not remember that they have eggs by the time the morning arrives.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

Wont the cory's eat the wrigglers? Do the parents sleep when they have eggs?

Thanks,
Mitch

[Dirk Bellstedt]

That is why I have told you to leave a light on in the room, then the parents can see the eggs and the fry, and although they sort of snooze, they do not sleep and then they do keep the corys away. Ancistrus are too powerful and would chase the parents away and eat the eggs, but corys are not that aggressive.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

Jackpot! 2nd batch of eggs laid this afternoon. I am seeing some weird behaviour from the female, she is attacking and chasing away the male, they also do the 'kissing'. What does all this mean? Is he going to be a liability to the proccess?

[Donny]

Best of luck with your 2nd batch and dont forget a night light.
1st time i have heard of this but would definately do wha Prof Dirk says.

[MItchell]

Is the night light a neccessity?

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Yes, the night light is a necessity in my opinion, you can try without it, but don't blame me if your fishes wake up and have forgotten about laying eggs the day before and now think they will caviar for breakfast.

The action that you are seeing between the male and the female is fighting. This could relax or it could get worse and then they will eat the eggs. I would leave them with eggs to see what they will do, but watch them closely. If the eggs are not fertilized or are going rotten because the water in your aquarium is not suitable or if the eggs are not fertilized, the parents will eat them. However, if they fight they may just to eat them even if they are perfectly healthy. So, this is quite difficult to assess if you are not experienced and you will have to see what happens. Whatever does happen though, you can watch things closely and even if they make another flop, you will learn and will be able to improve things for next time.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

Morning of day 2 eggs are still there. Due to constraints I didnt put a night light on the eggs last night. Three eggs are unfertilized, not full of fungus yet, it doesnt seem as if the parents are going do anything about it but Ill leave them.

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Mitchell, if you just put on a reading light overnight in the room where the aquarium is that is enough, they do not need a bright light at all.

Anyway, don't despair it will happen again and the parents are learning.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

Update:
The parents sorted out the unfertilized eggs but slowly more are appearing, none have formed fungus. Still several hundred eggs left.

[Dirk Bellstedt]

HI Mitchell,

I completely misread your earlier email and I thought that there were not many eggs left. If things are ok, I am glad for your sakes, next step is that the eggs will hatch and then the fry will not be able to swim immediately, but will remain stuck on the medium and have tiny tails that will beat all the time. The chances are that the parents will move the fry so do not be upset if the fry appear somewhere else.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

Update:
Hundreds of little wrigglers! Its fascinating to see how the parents catch the falling babies and redeposit them onto the wood. Some babies have fallen into the anubia on the wood, but the parents still take care of them there. The female is trying to move all of the babies to a new site on the glass, but the male is right beside her catching the fry as she spits them out and placing them back on the wood.

[Rudi]

@Prof. Dirk a question,if we need a night light for the Angels to keep a eye on the eggs and fry at night,then I assume in nature they will only be spawning during a full moon?Captive fish are "stupid" and don't instinctively know how to take care of the eggs,but would you do the same if you had wild fish?

[Dirk Bellstedt]

My experience with this night light stuff is that when you keep discus, and you do not use a night light, you can just about forget about fry. I have found that it helps with angels. I am not convinced that angels in the wild need the full moon for light, all I know is that their parenting properties are much better than the captive ones, and I can say this from personal experience with breeding wild-caughts. I think part of this problem has come from the practice of removing eggs and babies from their parents and then they actually do not know how to look after them. If you do this in dwarf cichlids the offspring will loose their parenting properties immediately (Rams and apistos). So, if the fishes do not actually see the eggs at night, they do not know what to do with them in the morning and then eat them.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[Rudi]

Makes sense,thanks.

[Firefly]

Congrats man. Keep us posted.

[Vis]

Hi Mitchell, hope not to hijack you thread but my Angels also decided to lay eggs this afterenoon so will just tag along with your thread.

Had 3 angels and two of them started picking on the one a few days back. They hanged around together and cleaning spots here and there. Removed the 3rd one today and took it to the LPS where it cam from. Was a gift from the owner.
When I got home a little later today there the eggs were.

Also a 250L pretty well planted tank with about 50 tetras so I do not foresee succes this time round.
Its their first spawn since I raised them from 3cm babies.

Laid the eggs on a broad leaf amazon sword about 30cm from the top of the tank and 40cm from the bottom.
They keep the other fish away successfully since most of them do not venture very high up the tank.
They laid the eggs quite close to the air inlet of the pickup pump, so they get a good flow and lots of oxygen there.

Leaving in 2 days for about 5 days so will see what happens when I come back and might move them to a 3ft tank to have another change.

Gerhard

[MItchell]

Congrats! Holding thumbs for them. What colour are yours?
Does anyone breed pure black veil tails?
Update:
Afternoon of day 3, yolk sacs are much smaller and Im starting to see eyes. Parents have moved babies back to the very point of the log just under the surface of the water. Looks like there's atleast 200! But I doubt they will all survive. When should I start hatching BBS?

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Mitchell,

All sounds good at your end. It will take at least another 24-36 hours before your fry will go free-swimming. However as soon as they go free-swimming you need to start feeding those freshly hatched bs, so you need to get them ready pretty soon. Actually if you have a large shoal of fry the chances are better that they will raise them as their instinct will be better to hold them together which is what they must do. You will have to squirt out the bs directly into the shoal of fry and the parents will be very aggressive towards you, so you must squirt out the bs quickly with some thin pipe like an airhose and then pull out the pipe quickly. Then I hope that your filter inlet is not too open so that they fry can get sucked in. If you can put a grid over it or a net or sponge that will help.

I breed black angels but because the black pigment formation takes a tremendous amount of energy you have to feed them much better and they are also much more aggressive towards one another. I have the veil gene in these angels, but I try not to breed pure veils but rather half veils, the pure veils are such poor swimmers and are always so lopsided that I feel sorry for them.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[Vis]

Congrats! Holding thumbs for them. What colour are yours?

Will try and post some pics.

[MItchell]

Ill starting hatching the bs, on Wednesday Ill start a second batch. The overflow has a sponge with large holes, they actually layed the eggs within 20cm of the overflow, but my sump pump is weak and therefore I doubt they will get caught in the overflow. Im also assuming that when they are free-swimming they will spend most of the time near the bottom of the aquarium.
I also like the half veils better, they have better finnage but dont have a long hanging tail that flops around.

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Mitchell,

Sorry mate, but the fry will swim just under the surface and an overflow will remove them in absolutely no time, so you will have to rig up a syphon or something. Because they have laid near the overflow they are also going to get violent if you fiddle near them. I have posted a pipe overflow somewhere on this forum, try to find it asap.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[mark d]

Can I ask a question.How long do I leave the fry in with the parent and how long does it take from eggs to wrigglers to free swimming?

[Dirk Bellstedt]

You can basically remove the eggs or the fry at any stage, but I prefer to leave them with their parents for period a week or two or even longer so that the young will also have good parenting properties, but the choice is yours. If you remove the eggs, the parents will also lay eggs again within a week and you can soon have small angels all over your house in this way.....

Kind regards,

Dirk


Can I ask a question.How long do I leave the fry in with the parent and how long does it take from eggs to wrigglers to free swimming?

[Altum]

Congrats! Holding thumbs for them.
Does anyone breed pure black veil tails?
When should I start hatching BBS?

Dirk has made good points to note

I'll offer A few tidbits ..Just quickly, you should have begun your artemia nauplii hatchery
Today would be good.
Oh, I see you have one on the go, and another for Wednesday?
It's OK..not a total waste..

I breed A few Angel pairs year just to keep my hand in on the process.
I breed whatever I feel challenged by, or want to rekindle the attraction for...sometimes In Black type or Breed...It's Blacks(Double Dark), other times it's Black Lace.
Currently I am working on Platinum Angels and want to return to larger Percentage Orange/Red background colour Koi Angels

...I prefer the Taller Finnage Variety with an extended tail as stronger breeders...
But a REALLY good Black Veil Angel is hard ot beat for a SHOW SPECIMEN if it's a strong fish.

I will look for pics of my current stock of European Bred Angels for you..if I can access pics from celphone...ummm:wondering:

Or just PM me your email address, it may just be abit easier that way.

Good luck with this and next broods..it's an exciting learning curve!:bigsmile:

[MItchell]

I cant find your pipe siphon plans. Here's a picture of the fry near the overflow (sorry about the cellphone pic quality). The pump cycles a maximum of 250L a hour and the overflow has a large area. Is it really possible for them to get caught in this?
6878

[Dirk Bellstedt]

OK, you might just make it, I think, because I also see a sponge at the overflow. I will try to find my syphon plans but this may not work in this tank in any case (looks very complicated).

I think you must just see how things pan out and possibly modify the setup if all the fry are sucked in.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

Thanks, thats good news. Ill hold thumbs for them.

[MItchell]

Update:
Afternoon day 4, Parents have finally moved the fry to a new location on the glass. They are spread out over the size of a soccer ball. The parents are more aggressive than ever now. The babies have used up their yolk sacs quickly and I think they'll be free-swimming by tommorrow afternoon. I still dont have any BBS yet, I think my BS eggs might have encountered moisture along the way. As a last attempt Im hatching some babies in low salt content RO water.

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Mitchell,

Do you use a hygrometer to adjust your salt concentration to the right density of 1.020. You pay so much for the bseggs yet so many folks don't buy a hygrometer for a couple of bucks and then it takes the guessing game out of hatching bseggs, this may be exactly the reason why they are not hatching.

You can try to contact Errol Scholtz, I think he is still in East London although he may now be in PE, he has bseggs from me that do hatch.

You will definitely need freshly hatched bs if you want to raise them.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

Yes I do have a hygrometer but sites on the net advise anything from 1.014 to 1.026

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Those are perhaps the outer boundaries, my experience is that you should be between 1.018 and 1.022, preferably 1.020 as I mentioned. If you use this density and your eggs do not hatch then you would know if they have died or not.

[SAMollyBreeder]

Excuse the ignorance but what is a hygrometer?

SAMB

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Molly,

A hygrometer measures the density of water. If salt is dissolved in water it makes the water more dense. The actual meter part of it actually looks like a thermometer and you allow it to float in the water of which you want to measure the density. You take the measurement by seeing how high it floats and you read the water level against a scale on the hygrometer.

When next you go to a LFS that sells marines ask them to show you a hygrometer. It is used in keeping marines all the time because you use it to find out if your water is getting to concentrated, too salty, because of evaporation and then you add distilled water to dilute the water to the correct density. If you do not the fishes and corals cannot cope with the too high salinity and will die.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[Firefly]

Mitchell, I have an "instant bag" of artemia. Let me know via PM when we can arrange a drop off...

[SAMollyBreeder]

Thanks Dirk :)

[Altum]

:amazed:
NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Let's first look at the terminology incorrectly applied, and then we ALL learn, relearn and get to know the CORRECT terminology.
One letter changes everything!!

I'm sure it's an honest mistake by Dirk mentioning the WRONG Measuring instrument:cool:

See below... it's for ALL of our benefit on TASA.


Hi Mitchell,

Do you use a hygrometer to adjust your salt concentration to the right density of 1.020. You pay so much for the bseggs yet so many folks don't buy a hygrometer for a couple of bucks and then it takes the guessing game out of hatching bseggs, this may be exactly the reason why they are not hatching.



Kind regards,

Dirk


Yes I do have a hygrometer but sites on the net advise anything from 1.014 to 1.026


Excuse the ignorance but what is a hygrometer?

SAMB


Hi Molly,

A hygrometer measures the density of water. If salt is dissolved in water it makes the water more dense. The actual meter part of it actually looks like a thermometer and you allow it to float in the water of which you want to measure the density. You take the measurement by seeing how high it floats and you read the water level against a scale on the hygrometer.

When next you go to a LFS that sells marines ask them to show you a hygrometer. It is used in keeping marines all the time because you use it to find out if your water is getting to concentrated, too salty, because of evaporation and then you add distilled water to dilute the water to the correct density. If you do not the fishes and corals cannot cope with the too high salinity and will die.

Kind regards,

Dirk

Hey guys...
Before it goes too far, let us clear up an apparent, repeated mistake mentioned above.

If you used a Hygrometer...
http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/image/jpg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBhQQEBUUEhQUFRUUGBQXFxcUFBQYFxYVFBQYFhQXFx UXHCYfGBokGxQWHzEgIycpLC4sFx4xNTAqNSYrLCkBCQoKDgwO Fw8PGiwfHxwsKSkpKSkpKSkqKSkpKSksKSkpKSkpKSkpKSkpKS kpKSksKSkpKSkpKSwpKSkpLCk2Nf/AABEIAMAAwQMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAACAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgMEBQIBB//EAEMQAAIBAgQCBwQIBAQFBQAAAAECAwARBBIhMQVBBhMiUWFxg TKRobEjM0JSYsHR8BRykuEVgqKyB0OzwvEWJERTc//EABoBAAIDAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAQMFAgb/xAAoEQACAgICAQQBBAMAAAAAAAAAAQIDBBEhMRITIkFRMhQjQm EFcYH/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/APuFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFUcbxhItNz3L+fdWFi+OSPoDlH4d/fS1mRCH9nca2xknxqJ7TAev5VnzdJIxsGbyFh8aWS3r515SUsy b64LlSl2bkvSdvsoB5kn4C1QnpNJ3J7j+tZD25/HSoziUH20/qX9apeRY/ksVcTb/APU0ncnuP61LH0pP2kHoSPnS+MWh2df6l/WugQdjfy1o/U2L5D0ojTD0mjO4ZfMXHwrRw+OST2WB8jr7qRK8z1ZHOku1s5d C+D6HRSZhOPyx7nMO5v1pg4fx6OXT2W7jz8jzp2rKrs/plEqpRNOivL17TZWFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRUWIxAjUsxs BUN65YHU0oUEsbAc6XeJceL3CXVe/mfLuqnxHijTNroo2X9ap1lX5TlxHoarqXbDNUckwUXJt8z5Deh LubILnv5eNv71pYPgQBu2p/e539BYVVVj2WvZ3KxRMkM7myJ6sP+0a+8irUfA5G1ZyPC9h7l/WmGHDgCwAA7uVTCOtKGFWu+RaV0n0YMfReO9yAT32BPva5qwvA oxyPvH6VrhK9y0yqYLpFbnL7MhuBRnkffVeXotEdctj32A+Isa 38tHV0OqD7QKcvsV5Ojsi6pI3kTce5r/OqMiSx+2l/FdD/S2/oadTHUUkAIsRelrMGqXXBZG6S7FCKcN7JvbcbEem9esK2OIdH1 fVdGGx5jyIrElDxG0g0+8B/uH5isu/EnVz2hmFqkbPCukLR9l7svxHkeYppwmNWVboQR4fn3UgHb9/A1ZwePeFsyeoOx866x8uUPbLlETqT5Q+0VU4dxFZ0zL6jmD3Vb rZjJNbQo1rsKKKK6ICiiigAooooA5eQKLnQDelHinEjM/wCEbD86udI+IXPVqdB7Vu/kKxTtWVl3NvxQ1VDjbPDUmGwhlPcvf3/vurvDYMubcuZrew8AUWGwrrGxfL3S6ObbdcIjwuDCCwH96tKld BaodIOIGCBmUkMbKpyM+Undsqg7C587VrpaFezQC10BSXhOP4h 1hYSaiPh7ZSq3mOJcrMWuNgATpaxF6asbxaGEgO4DN7KC7O3ki gsfO1GwLdqzOPY6WFFaJCwzHrCFVysaozEhSy3NwBvzNQS9Jex I6QuUiYo7MyJZgwVhl1bTNfbaq/EmM8whljwh6tRKDI7sLlihAsFsdNe8EVDZKPYONyPKhRkaIywx +wQ7iTC9d1m/Z1I0tsDTBalnA8RdzDN1eEzzCwAdw6hFZrlrHYXGg+1batI8ad M5eFisZszxujgEKGbsnKxtmHI0JgzUIrm1VsNxiKRiiuA43RwU fzyMASPEaVicS6SyRSTEKCidbEg0+uhw/Xsz8yuyi21r86nZAxFaq4vBhxYj9R5d1Q8HxUjtMsjK+Ro7Mq5 QRJEshFr8ifcRWkVqO0HQl4zANAdNUPL5le466jny1rlHDAEHQ 024rChgQRcUqYzCGF/wnXb/AFfrWPl4qj749DdNu+GWMBjjC4ZfUcmHd507YTFLIgZTcH9++v n5rX6O8U6qTI3sOf6W5ehqnEyPCXhLpndsNraHCigUVtiYUUUU AFVeI4zqo2b3eZ2q0aWek2Lu4QfZ1Pmdvh86pvs9ODZ3CPk9GO 8l7k6kk17h48x+HrUbC5A/f71rY4ZhLa+g/M1k41Tts56G7H4RLeEwoUWHr51cRa4jFVY+Ow2Ju+jiPWOQEyE XCqGALG2ulegSSWjP7NECosZikiRnkYKgHaJ2seXjfuH9qhXi8 RgGIzDqioYNY7HQdnfNfS3fWJHiJJZYphkdjnCwEkdQBp1hblI pOV7jmFWxGsNgdY7HFuqvfDwOCsbxAGZrAFVWwPVqyjQKCdNcu lUcFhDhY4jKYoHVmPWWMmJnzAqCYxuzKRcEtYgbVf4dgjc9Qwv 2g+JK9lQWu0WFj2Cg319kfiO21guHJDcqCWa2Z2N5HIG7vufLY cgKg6MeLh2bP9BLLnOZmxMgjRmIUfVr4Ko9jlUkfDJxfKmAQEk 6RSMfU9m58a3qKCDBm4VO3tx8PkHMNDIvx7XyqKXhQCmM4aSJW 1Jw0uZMwINzEbE7DTIdqY6KCBTnviBMy9XjDkCrG30UkTJmILR tsczA5hlOgA2qPhYaJx1f/u5OqtiOsCrOmWyhQWAuC2YBH3A9q1M+N4ek1s47S3ysCQ6G26O NV9PUGsfiOGZRaaRhpljxSAB0DWGWYbZWOlx2e/KdSaJNXhksTRgw5QgJFlGXKRoVZdwwtYg66eFW6UsNMRI3VGGF 8MgR1B+jnVFU2zHZFBtckurNrp7THw3iiTxCVD2SDe+hUj2lYc iNb+h5ipTILLLWbxHBh1sfTwNEHSjCurFJ0YLlvbMbF75RoNzY 6C+1WllWVFdCGVgGVhsVIuCPMUNKS0SuORN6rKSp0tf0tuPSur fv9/vStTjWEsc48AfP7J+YrMIrzmTT6U2aEJeSHTgXEOtiF/aXst5jY+orSpN6NYvJNbk4t6jUfpTlWti2+pWmKWR8ZBRRRTRW eMdKRcbNnkZvvE/PT5U4cUmywuR3fPT86S2WszOl1EZoXbJMIl205fM6D9+FMMMdg B3VlcJjuR5k+g0HxBraQUzg1+Ne/srvluWjqxtpvra/fyrFj6NuG6zOgl61ZbDP1RcKyOxVjmDMrnY/ZWt1BVTjOM6uLRlVnKxqzGwDObXv4C7enjTrKBYxC9lYY52V8M V6gZNZ5yxu5Q9l48zMlh7NmY7CtODBNIzR5s1yDipV0zuALYeP mEAtf8Jte7GoopGS9urk6gjD4YKuW8rqM7NckAquhtyD99qYcF hRFGqAk5Rud2P2mPiSST4moJJY0CgACwGgAsAABYAAbDTaujRa iuiDFxnFJhijFGIiqwpMS+e9utZXUZeeVdO471j4jjsmJw8Mls iSS4FlZH1tLKA8TAG+nPa9yLU2jCrn6zKue2XNbtZb3y37r61F/hkWv0UYuwc2RRdwbhzYatfW9QBndIcJLKFaCYRqokzHOQL3WzE ruFyPceNV16QqsuaTOBKI+rUeykMkvVxOVP23Y3PMDKO+tz+DT IUyLkN7qBpqcx0HjrXM8SMQzKpK6gkC689zt3+FAEzN+/Gl6fiTYuRoMMxCKSs+IFuydjDDfRpO9tl8TWbieLvxKRoMIzJh 0Np8Su7d8UB7zsX7qauG8OSCNY41CIgsqjYD9fHnR2BiTcGSJU gIAhzK2HY2IgmBuqG/2WO297lT9k1DhsdJFI+IneNc8iwvAgOgXQSAt2mezKxNsuS3cK aMThRIjI3ssLH9R4je/eKXcQzKOtCxmXTCzmUEBhf6KQlbnKc97cxLbS2kAXjwmTsSZla VZjM1ychBV41UEC9ljYW8Qe+rnDMD1MEcdwcigEgaE7mw5C50F Q8DLKhhkKl4MqkqCAUK3jbKSSNLjc6oa0rVIGfjIMykd4+PI++ lmVNu/UHzG/503TLS9xKKzOAO5x58zWfn17h5fQxRLnRnxuVII3FiPMG/5V9Cw8wdFYfaAPvF6+dc6dejk2bDrf7JK+gOnwIpT/Hy1JxLL1wmalFFFbAqZfSJ7Q+bAfnStTJ0m+rX+b/tNLZrIy3+4N0/ia/C1022VQPiau4jErEjPIQqoCzE8gNzVbhZ7P8AT/tFWcXAZI3QZbspXtrmXUW1XmPCtWhftx0Kz/JlKTpTCiknPdTIGUISy9TlMpYDkodSTfnXPFJyZ0ZIxL1MTykF 8v1nZUi4IJypJvaquE6JssSoZRfJNG7KhvIk9i7tmY/S5he+o1tbQVV43hI2llJ64MrYSBcjSLGFJj7L5TZvrjvVpyafB 8KA8aFQDBEHOUWUTYksWCgcwob+ut21ZnB5Cz4ljzxDqPKNEQf I+81p0EBRRRQAE1yTQ5rB6VdJRgoesKliWCKBa7O2yi9RKXitk pbNibEBQSxsACSToABqSSdhXz/F8Vl4zKYMMzR4NDaaaxBl/AncD7+Z00rOxOLxfGMR/DMrYeCOxmBtmPNb29rW1gNK+j8J4VHholiiUKi7AfEk82O5NEX 5A1ok4ZwxII1jiUKiCygcu/zJ5mrorwCva6IPayeIYYGbJqBio3iY3OjxqWjPnlZtfw+Fa1Ue LSZBE3dNEPLOxiP/AFKgDC4FiCMRERhzEs6OjNmU9ZNH9IGsCTraXVteXKtYdJ4LXL ED7JKtZx1nVApb2u2QPUUvYQomKIOIlzx4xgsBb6IJK5Gi5d7T Mb3q7F0RkBv1iXUow0Yh2TEmcF1Ps+0RZNO14CoJNvD4xJkDob qSRexBurFWBB1BBBGtZvEx2lJ5qy/p86vcP4f1EeW+Yl5JCbW7Urs7WHIXb4VX4iPY/m+YqnIW62d1/khfpn6JS9h17mB94/tSu29MfRD/AJn+T86xsN6tQ3d+AyUUUVuiRkdJVvEPBh8iKWGpt47HeBvCx+ NKJOtZGYtT2N0v2m5wk3U/5f8Ab/atBax+CvqfFR/pNvzrYBrUxpbrQtYtSZ2BSvxEFZJh1qKpxWEkyFRna5w/sksDuO7lTQKXONRt10qpEHMsCuHzKuQwsymxIJJ1TRauZwjT4E/14+7iJx72DD4MK1Ky+GTKZZcp0l6vED+WVAhPvi+PjWoDQQFBo NeCgDxhSP006M4nHyKqsI4IiHvcGSSUi2ZRsoUWGvO5p5NFS1s nYs9FOjjYYOXZ3d7ZnkKliF2HZ0ApkC17XtRGKitIlvYV7evKD QcntZ3HtYgBu0kCjzMya1oVSx8v0sCfednPgsSMb/1MlBJiTq8jSWKiM4+EWKtmvG0IOt7alO6mm9JvCYVMsF4SJJZZ 8R1vZIdPpHU6NcfWRCxFOVQDIZazOIn2P5r+4VoynSsfi0naUb 2V2Pu/8VTkPVTO61uSMW9MnRAaSea/I0tXpt6KR2hJ+8x+FhWPhLdv+hu7iJtUUUVuCRBjIc8bL3g/2pIIp+IpM4nBklYcibjyOtZ+bDaTGKX2jzhsuWQfH1pgpVzW1p lws2dAfl313gz9ric3rnYv8b4bM0uI6nrO3hcqnOfbOIJZFJNl JTTTvqKXhQjVpWMkEK4l2sjMpOHljjX7PaVTKoa2/vpsFE0IdSrbMCD5EWNvQ1oC4uYOXqCmhSPDs0JD3v8Aw01uoc3 uQFdQCT3MaaKVDJ1T5ppHkfWCSPICWw9i3Wqqa6Ahix/GN62uF4m30TNmZVBV7362I6JIG2J2B8fBhUEi3jeNTxxcSIklJ w7kQkIhVAsavrprqxvflW5huNEN1JR3kWKCQElB1olIViDyytv pXT9GYmSdCZMuJOaYZ/aJFjbTS4AGndUsHCvpleQKeoBSFrsXyMqhs99L9nl31OiCoOla lgFjcqVxLBrqLjCtlc5Sbi52vXkfS1SiP1Uq9YjSqGyXMSRrI7 6Hlmy23JrnAdHZUY5pmZZOt61TkIIkzew2QOCCRuTV5uARFI0s 1okManMb9WyhGVidwQo91HIFPF9MYo3IKyMoTDyZ1AIyYl8kbW JDe1YWtzro9LosgJVw2eePIQMwbDgmUXBINgNLb3AqXF9FoJCx IYZlgQhSAAmHfrIgBb73v2ofoxFuDIGEskwdXKury/WZSPskaWNHIFc9LFWeUMpEMcWHkzn2i2IayLkOo3A873qWbpSg MarHK7SNMiqqi5eAXcC5AIIFwwJBqXF9GYJWkZw561EjYB2AtE c0bDudTqDUh4IpkhcvIzQdZlLNct1q5GLaa6AbWo0BoKb238uY 8xS7xPHX66QXb/40QRSWzXJxDqALkLrt/wDUa1uJYpltHH9bJcL+ED2pD4LcHxJA51gDG65sOyt/DlYIo5FLFzIQDLe4btkizjQhWPOhgVcLw4mGdo8VJJFGsUcTye 0qIyyYiO6KG1VVTa4OnKvP8Ll6u2WUZg8sCKWtC74gOEY30Kx5 d9LFwNqcMDheqjVQb23b7zE3ZvMsSfWpGNQSRzHWlrikoaRvCy j01P5VvYqfIrMeQ+PKlR5L/E+prOz7NR8RiiPOzkCnvg2HyQIPC58zr+dJfD8P1kqr3nXy3Pw r6ABVWBDuR1e+ke0UUVqCwVgdJcLorjlofI7fvxrfqvj8IJUKn 086qth5xaOoS8XsSq0OCYmxKHzGn51nSLYkcwbHzFcFiCCNxtW RVY657HJR8lobq6Bqpw/GiVL8+Y8atVvRkpLaM9rTKPFMLJpLBl65AQAwOWRDqUa2u/aXxHcTWDhmZ3SDCNn6vLIZZFt/Clj9JEVFgc65gIh7NzfTLTaKweDY6RsQLsCsn8WWTKoEZhmCRn QZrkGxzb6VOgGKiiipAKKLUUMAoovQKgAooNFACbjJHXETQ4hl iE+dhiB/zIEXs4dQR2WUXzA6kFrXJuNnhOGaQpPMqqypkhVVtkQ2u1jqpc AHJ9kADe9U+JccK/xAkhjPUNhMit2hnxDZVLaWGUtfT31XbpTPaUBYs2HM3WE57SCK cRjIM3ZLKWJuTZgBUEjYaic125/ZqnjsUI1vzOgHjRKSim2CW+DK47itkHm1Y5rueQkknck+6/zow8Bdgo3JAH7/AHtXnLpu6w0YLwiMHRTBamQj8K/nTNUGCwwjQKNgPeeZqetumv04KIlOXlLYUUUVccBRRRQArdKcD 1bdco7J0kty7n8tgfSsc0/SxBgQwBBBBB2IO4r55xjAHhzgWJwx9ltzGdTY7kgfLXvrLyaNP yQ1VP4ZYw2KMTZl2PtDv8f33UzYbEiRQym4NKua40ItvcWOm+h HLxqbCYoxElde8cvE1xj5LrfjLom2vyW0NQr1EAJIABO5AAJPe SN6rYTHLILg69x37qs1tRkpLaEtNdnd69rlTXVSAXoooqACiii gArwmgmuSaNAVZeGRP1mZAeuCCS9+0EFk8reFRvweE2vGumbv1 zP1jX+9dwG15irtVMfxFYRdrk8lG5/Sok1FbZKTZJiMQEW7HT5+VLONxhka59B+lcYzFtK2Zj5LyX9ai rEysp2e2PQ7VV48s5amfoxwnKOtcan2QeQ7/WqPAeDdaQ7+wP8AUR+VNyi1W4mPz5y/4cW2fxR7RRRWoLBRRRQAUUUUAFQYzBrKhRxdW3Bqeioa3wB8v4 twmXhbXUNLhWOw1aIk/ZHdzK6A/ZsdKs4TGJKgeNgyNsRz/Q94NiOdfRJoQ6lWAIIsQdiDuDXzzpB/w+lgdp+HNlY6tEdUfzW9msNtmHInas+7F3zEYhb8MmRypuDY1r YTjvJ/eP0pN4f0mVm6ucfw81yMkh7LEb5HIAP8ps3hzOzelY2WUvgtlB TQ3xYlW9k3qQGk5ZCNjbyq7Dxh1O9x409DPi+JIodD+BlzUZqw 4+P94HperH+NqeXxFMLJqfyV+nI1L0E1k/46Pun+pagl6Qn7KC/idPhQ8mpfIKqX0bd6inxaxi7sFHj+m9L83GZG+1b+UWv7/nWc73N9z3k3PvNLWZ8V+KLY0P5NfG9IGOkIsNRmbfT7q/rWO78ySWO7HcnahmqGVgLZja5AF+ZY2ArLtvna+RmEFEkrZ4Lw MzHM1xH/ALvAeFXOEdGLdqX+nl699MarYaU7jYn8plNlvwgjjCgACwGgAr qiitUVCiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAoIoooAx+P9FMPjVImQEkWz ADNb5HyN6SMV0ExuDucJKJoxa0MtzYeFyCv+Vrfhr6fRaqp1Rk dxm0fIo+kuRimJhkgcd4LLt3gBvetaeFx0coBjdHB+6wPw3HrX 0PFYOOVcsiK6nkwBHuNLuO/4cYOU3EZjPfGxHuve3pSU8N/xZcrl8mLQK1X6Cuo+ixcg8JY0k+Iymq7dEcYNpsOfOKQfJjSzx Lfos9WP2UTXhNXl6I4znNhx5RyH5tViPoRKfrMUw8IokX4sSaP 0tv0DtiY5qscUubKDmY7KgLsfRabYOguHH1hkm/8A1kJH9IsK28HgI4VyxoqDuVQB8N67jgSb9zOXel0JuC6O4iWx KiBe9+1IfJRovqTTPwrgEeHGl2Y7u5ux/IeladFP1Y0K+kUSslIAKKKKZKwooooAKKKKACiiigD/2Q==http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvPhIdKxKS6KDBoJwEDUl-NK3dOzoAxDE6eoeM8sZJHH8cgHhGhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcStKRO1cnPxCAQLa7AsRra8hxyolLBvc I0EPYfEQPyI-pInVrcsWw
Digital and Dial/Analogue Hygrosmeters
you would be measuring the WATER or MOISTURE CONTENT (or RELATIVE Humidity) of an enclosed environment..usually of air , or soil.
eg. Greenhouses, Farms,Cigar Humidors, Labs, Computer server rooms, Reptile/Bird egg and other Incubators may have one or other form of it.

What you mean to say, and should be recommending is a HYDROMETER!
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSsnXtT2546yYDNfrUiu5i1O-WAcXTaXfqpmadYg-4Pb88Ei05bhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTB0No9Iagb1jqggQlJgY6bnX3v1a-bOPFEwE5gIc9c5ewJWyyc
"floating thermohydrometer" and "swing needle hydrometer"

This apparatus measures RELATIVE DENSITY or SPECIFIC GRAVITY of a fluid.
Specifically of interest to aquarists benefit , is the SALINITY Hydrometer.
This type is calibrated for use with seawater(natural or synthetic saltwater mixes), and it's salt content estimation.

Common , cheap LFS models are thermohydrometers, with an enclosed thermometer.

Specific gravity (SG), is a dimensionless measure of dissolved SALTS , relative to (pure) FreshWater.ie . no "units "
SG ranges between 1.000-1.030 for almost all practical purposes in aquaria

With Desalinated, De-Ionised, Distilled, Reverse Omosis water typically registering as 1,000
As the Water increases in Salt content it is now heavier, and that number will show as higher than freshwater.
SO natural seawater ranges 1.022-1.026 (avg 1.024)

As a ratio it is dimensionless

SALINITY can be calculated , or the Hydrometer would have a dual Calibrated Scale corresponding the SG with Salinity.

Typical readings are in ppt(parts per thousand) or the same as gram per Litre
Compare to above natural seawater SG 1.024 ~36ppt = 36g/L
AND if you want to get fancy, in conductivity, ~ 53mS/cm (milliSiemens per cm)

Last thing I want is for people to rush into a petshop and ASK for a HYGROMETR..and be handed something absolutely USELESS for the purpose at hand..which is to have a measure of salt content in a saline solution.

Or be stared at, when asking to SEE the Hygrometer..UMMM, Hydrometer:bigsmile:

Oh, Yes! This thread is about angel fish fry.
You have problems hatching Artemia cysts into nauplii for Angel Fry feed.

I hope you find this helpful ...:blink1:

[MItchell]

Sad news, this morning most of the fry were missing, I searched and found them dead in the sump. I blame myself but will know better next time. This morning there were still about 20 left, so I switched off the sump, put the heater and a sponge filter in the tank. The sponge filter is rated for 50L and its in a 220L aquarium, better than nothing.
So Ive got 2 questions:
If the sump stops running aka. stagnant water, with no heater and a bunch of dead angelfish fry, Will the bacteria on my bioballs die?
and I left the CO2 running in the sump because I was in a hurry this morning, Will the water become soda water and thus dangerous when I switch the pumps back on? (The CO2 is in a closed off compartment to the bioballs)

Thanks,
Mitch

[TomK]

http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?6041-What-to-do-with-my-1.8m-tanks&p=84513&viewfull=1#post84513

I think this is the post Prof is talking about concerning the pipe overflow.

[Altum]

:eek:so sorry to hear
But I'm sure you suspected as much would happen .

May I suggest, IF you really want to spawn and raise in the communal tank setting..that you measure a piece of plastic light diffusor grating(egg crate) or any other open frame-type divider.
Electrical conduit, made into a frame (with elbows) would do as well.

Use it as a divider panel...to FRY PROOF your overflow:noworry:
Cover it in Shade cloth or Flyscreen(non-metal if possible.)

Wedge in position closest to Overflow chamber.
It should cover front to back and be from base(below substrate surface) to above your water line...

Now you will have adequate water flow THROUGH the panel for it's practical entire surface area.

BUT the fry are physically separated from direct overflow influence ..and it's deadly tug o' war over the weir...

Problem-wise...You have Too many variables now, Mitchell.

Aerate, asap in the sump.
Add a bacterial starter, AFTER you do a water change of the chamber where you introduced CO2..then it doesn't matter if you have a locally low pH, OR if water has re-equilibrated it's pH.

The Sponge filter, even if correctly sized, can do NOTHING for you besides some initial aeration, circulation, and physical mechanical filtration.
Biologicaly it is not colonised, nor seeded, so does no Nitrification.

You have shut-off your filtration circuit, and THAT is of concern.
Angel parents when in full swing can spawn 2-4 times a month if you must know.
SO...
take care of the PARENTS, and work out solutions for future fry, and your later spawning attempts.

Bacteria will survive on bioballs, but biofilm will foul, and be inundated by the lack of adequate OXYGEN!!! This WILL affect those balls that are totally submerged more than those kept wet (as if lightly sprayed)...or the topmost floating layer if in a chamber full of bioballs.
Plastic bio media have material characteristics that lend themselves to different bacterial surface adhesion, and if I was you, I would remove them ..ALL of them, and rinse in some TANK water(from above), and replace into sump.

A simple swirl in a dish of tank water of a batch at a time is all that's required.

AGAIN, to restablish equilibrium swiftly and gently DONT forget the Bacterial starter, eg. Seachem Stability (my personal choice) or Use what you have at hand and know to work for you...
Aerate vigorously in the sump.

ALSO introduce an airstone or two into the largest filter chamber where the majority of your media sits.

RInse your sponges in tapwater... we dont want nitrification in your prefiltration, or mechanical filter at this stage.
Remove any visible dead fry.

Test for major parameters, NH3(Free), NO2, pH....
to overcome this pothole you have inadvertently caused by switching OFF your sump.

Note cut feed quantity to about 1/3 -1/4 of normal while you keep an eye on things. I'm sure you can return to 1/2 normal feed qauntity after a week to be safe and sure...

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Altum,

Thanks for correcting me and sorry for the confusion that I have possibly caused with regard to the HYDROMETER. Thanks to Altum's detailed description I think this issue has now been cleared up properly.

Happy brine shrimp hatching after all this.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[TomK]

Prof, re post #42. Is that the correct link?

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Tom.K,

Yes thanks, that is the correct link, thanks for finding that again.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

Fry are all gone.
For interest sake what would be the right concentration of salt for growing not hatching BS?

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Mitchell,

I am sorry to have to ask, but why do you want to grow out bs? is that what you are asking or am I not understanding this properly.

Bottom line is that the highest nutritive value of bs is within 24 h of hatching, after that the bs rapidly loose their nutritive value and then you are wasting your time. If you want larger bs, buy frozen bs which is much more cost effective.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

I find it interesting to watch them, since I was young I always wanted "sea monkey's".

[MItchell]

Yesterday the parents laid their 3rd set of eggs on the leaf of a amazon sword. I siphoned some tank water into another bare tank, added methylene blue, a heater and a airstone. I cut off the plant leaf and put it in the tank. This time I hope Ive eliminated all of the variables.

The tank with the eggs is a 2ft, it only has about 8cm of water in it at the moment. When should I start slowly filling it from the parents setup. Daily now are daily after the eggs have hatched?

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Methylene blue belongs in the museum of tropical fish keeping, most bacteria that are harmful are resistant to it and only beneficial bacteria are damaged by it. What this brings me to is that in your new tank you are going to require a corner filter as a biological filter asap or else you are headed for problems again.

YOu can start filling the tank as soon as you see the fry hatching but I would remove some of the water to remove the methylene blue as it is also harmful for the fry. Then you will have to see how the fry develop in the same steps as they did with the parents with the difference that the parents are not looking after them. They may therefore get spread all over the aquarium but that should be OK.

Let us hope this will work this time.

Kind regards,

DIrk

[Marco]

Hi Mitchell,

Dirk Bellstedt, (if you dont mind me adding Prof Dirk)

When I use to breed Angels and raise fry artificially, I used 3 liter glass containers for the fry for at least the first two weeks. I'd put all the fry in one for the first couple of days, then as time passed I used to split them up into groups of three, just because I only had 3 of those Jugs! I found in the smaller space the fry had less swimming to do and ate much better as the concentration of bbs per volume is much higher. Of course, as there was no filtration it meant twice daily water changes . Survival rate for me was increased greatly compared to even a 1ft tank which I used at first. At the same time one also end up with a high culling rate as survival rate goes up.
I never enjoyed that much.....

Rgds,

Marco

[MItchell]

I have removed a bucket of water and replaced it with a bucket of water from the main tank to reduce the amount of methylene blue. The water still has a blue tint and I was wondering if some AC would remove it. I dont have a corner filter and Its going to be a while before I can get one, so can I just drop the stocking bag of AC near the airstone?

[MItchell]

Im only starting to realise how fragile these babies are...
Today the airpump that circulates the water failed and by the time I got home half the population died.

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Mitchell,

We obviously realize why you have removed these fry from their parents, but you can see from your experiences in which you have lost these fry how important the role is that the parents play and how much easier they actually make it to raise angel fry. In my opinion, I prefer it to have the parents do the difficult raising work for me and once the fry are a reasonable size that I then remove them from their parents.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[MItchell]

Angelfish have laid their 4th set of eggs. I hate to admit it but they are in a 50L, I put them there so that no other fish would eat the eggs (reason why batch 1 didnt hatch), so that the fry wouldnt get sucked into a filter (reason why batch 2 died - the 50L has a sponge filter) and so that the parents can take care of the fry (Assume this is the reason for the death of fry in batch 3).

[MItchell]

Its day 2 and for some reason many of the eggs have dissappeared, Im assuming the parents ate them. They dissappear in small patches, could this be because the parents eat the infertile eggs and those surrounding them? There's still atleast 50 eggs left.