View Full Version : Tyrone's signature
TyroneGenade
14-05-2009, 17:43
Since when has freedom of speech (i.e. being free to express an idea that is not slanderous) taken a back-seat to what "might" be offensive? I have been advised that my signature "may" offend senstive readers.
In long debates on other forums with Muslims, Jews, Atheists etc... not a single one has every found my signature (or variants thereof) offensive. It has, instead, generated many interesting exchanges which have displayed a surprising amount of tolerance. Seems freedom of speech is still alive and well in the Far East. Far fewer people are offended by an idea than one would think...
If you find my signature offensive, feel free to email me and we can discuss it further, else you can reply here and we can discuss it in the open like a mature society instead of going to complain to the admins.
Have pleasant evening.
tt4n
Henk Hugo
14-05-2009, 17:46
This is a website for discussions on fish - not religious topics. Thread closed.
As Henk has stated this forum is for the discussion of tropical fish/plants and not religion. As far as I'm aware on pretty much all south african forums I'm on religion is not a topic to be discussed. I have never ever seen a religious debate on the internet lead to "interesting exchanges".
Please also note that the rules have not changed, simply made more clear. Please see the user agreement:
http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?t=2
TropicalAquarium.co.za reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to refuse to post or remove any material submitted to or posted on the message boards. Political or religious posts by their nature can become very controversial and therefore are subject to removal at any time in order to avoid potential "flame" wars.
Since when has freedom of speech (i.e. being free to express an idea that is not slanderous) taken a back-seat to what "might" be offensive? I have been advised that my signature "may" offend senstive readers.
In long debates on other forums with Muslims, Jews, Atheists etc... not a single one has every found my signature (or variants thereof) offensive. It has, instead, generated many interesting exchanges which have displayed a surprising amount of tolerance. Seems freedom of speech is still alive and well in the Far East. Far fewer people are offended by an idea than one would think...
If you find my signature offensive, feel free to email me and we can discuss it further, else you can reply here and we can discuss it in the open like a mature society instead of going to complain to the admins.
Have pleasant evening.
tt4n
Hi Tyrone
I don't think your signature offensive at all nor do I see any problem with it. We aren't going into any religious debates on here as a result of your signature, so I personally don't have a problem with it. Don't know how the rest of the board feels about it.
I have been advised that my signature "may" offend senstive readers.
With the following part of the User Agreement in mind...
Political or religious posts by their nature can become very controversial and therefore are subject to removal at any time in order to avoid potential "flame" wars.
...my question is if nobody's complained, why make an issue out of it?
I suggest let's all give our opinion in this matter because I personally think this is a bit ridiculous
Cheers
Dale
Hi Solex and Tyrone,
I didn't find his thread offensive at all, but being a fellow believer myself, and an active memeber in my church, I wouldn't be offended by it. I am glad to see someone standing up for what they believe.
BUT having said that... His signature was a link to a course. This is an aquarium forum, and by joining we accepted the rules and regulations. Ty, yes, we fall under the Kingdom rules, which is go forth and preach, teach and make disciples. But remember that by joining this forum, you accept to fall under these rules. (Remember- give to caesar what is caesar's.- that means OBIDE by the laws of the land and the places YOU yourself put yourself into.) And part of those rules is not to advertise unless it is within the confines of the rules and reg's. And I think that having your signature as a link is a very sneaky way of advertising. There's no point in being bold in what you believe, but then having an alterior motive behind the signature.
And although I take my hat off to you for your signature, please be aware that the forum doesn't want any religion or politics in the threads... which unfortunately I would have to agree with. There is nothing more frustrating than reading in a forum dedicated to a specific topic about someone's personal political and religious view.
Maybe the Mod's can assist or back me up... I don't think they would have had a problem with your signature in general, I think the problem came in the fact that it was a link to your alpha course.
Well said Zoom....I concur the link should maybe then be removed, but for the rest of the wording, I think it shouldn't be a problem
Ok then. How about I'm offended by it then? What now?
TyroneGenade
15-05-2009, 09:34
the topic was freedom of speech, not religion.
Signature part 2
After speaking to Rory the rules have been changed.
Please remove it from your signature.
__________________
Henk Hugo
It is very unfair to change the rules ad hoc in the middle of the game. But this is your right and I choose not to abide by it and will thus leave.
All freedoms in society hinge on freedom of speech and property rights. I will respect you property rights even though you do not respect my freedom of speech.
this topic is still not about religion but about freedom fo speech.
tt
You obviously didn't read my post right after that one saying the rules have not changed and it has always been in the user agreement (which you agreed to and obviously did not read)
Hey Tyronne!
I hear your plight, and am also a little confused as to why this was Cut, after all, it was posted in the OFF- TOPIC section, and so therfore should be honoured. At the same time, I realise that religious content may be a debate minefield, but just because its a difficult subject, it should not be brushed under the carpet. Whether or not people have any religous beliefs, does not change the fact that these are potentially life changing issues. Shall we also not talk about famine, aids/hiv, swine flu and other medical issues, education, sex, drugs etc just because they are difficult???
If Tyronnes signiture is considered offensive, should all people with any kinda philosophical signiture also remove theirs??
Just my tupence worth, and I hope no one was offended by it!
Cheers
Big G!
Ok, now I'm really confused! I replied to a differnt thread, and ended up here! What happened?? Now, having read the rest of this debate, I would say that maybe yes the link should be removed, but then anyone else with any other sort of link that pushes something none fish related should also have to remove their links, in order to fulfill the terms and conditions so to speak! Whether that be cars, women, aircraft, sports activities, etc;
And Rory, as amain man on this forum, I think it is unfair of you to choose which topics are to be associated with this site based on your personal reaction to whether something is offensive or not? If there ae rules considering these issues, then they should be followed, but must encompass ALL aspects, rather than just the ones that are offensive to you personally. I don't mean this as a personal attack, more as a suggestion, and reaction to your statement earlier about 'what if you're offended by it'?? It is your right to be offended, but that cannot influence other peoples reaction any more than people react to Tyronnes Signiture.
It seems a shame to me that such a good website can become a place of hostility because of a persons beliefs?
Sorry, I'm loosing the point now, so will sign off!
Cheers
Big G!
It saddens me that ones freedom of speech is compromised due to lack of tolerance. Another pathetic case of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Rules clearly state, no religious discussion, but that has not happened here. As Tyrone clearly states, this is an issue of freedom of speech and lack of tolerance, not religion.
If anyone feels anything on TASA to be offensive, it is recommended in the rules that they address it privately. It seems these rules do not apply to the hierarchy.
What also saddens me is that it seems another brilliant hobbyist, with ton's of experience will be lost to this forum, as has happened on others, due to petty narrow mindedness. Maybe someday soon, people will realise that in fact the hobby does not revolve around them.
Just looking through some of the other bits and pieces discussed "off topic", the avoidance and selectiveness amaze me. If one wanted to be petty, there are far more offensive things in the off topic chat than Tyrone's signature....have a read. Yet he has been targeted for his boldness in faith. What a pity. Funny also that the original thread was closed because "This is a website for discussions on fish - not religious topics." Yet in the same section we find jokes, stuff on Man United to mention a few. Is off topic chat not for exactly that purpose??? Perhaps only for some....
I take it Rattail is not a member here??
Ok well apparently everyone wants to discuss religion, politics, women and cars on this tropical aquarium forum.
Big G I was simply using that as an example to illustrate a point. I couldn't care less what anyones religion is on here.
Shall we also not talk about famine, aids/hiv, swine flu and other medical issues, education, sex, drugs etc just because they are difficult???
Yes, this is a forum for tropical aquariums... There are literally hundreds of other places on the internet to go discuss those topics.
If anyone feels anything on TASA to be offensive, it is recommended in the rules that they address it privately. It seems these rules do not apply to the hierarchy.
These threads were not started by anyone in the "hierachy", merely responded to. Would you rather they were ignored/deleted?
A message was sent in private to Tyrone to explain the situation.
I am not convinced that Tyrone's signature is offensive. thought it gave me a little insight into Tyrone's views on life as "he sees it" and in no-way felt threatened. Only people who feel threaten especially with regards to Freedom of speech/religion etc, act unilaterally and say they speak for all. These are normally small minded bigots like Mugabe and Hitler, not fish hobbyist surely.
Arent we are bigger than this? Everybody subconsciously or consciously punts their views/product. That is what makes us unique and different.
If something offends, it is also the "one who is offended" to deal with you as an indiv, and not speak or make blanket decisions on "our behalf", who are are tolerant and accepting of people who have different views. Blanket rules like this seems a gross Humans rights violation.
The last I heard, we still live in a democracy. Will we also be told as to what username WE MUST USE too?
This has unfortunately become a personally issue between Admin and Tyrone. A matter that should have been dealt with privately. The Freedom of Choice to OFFEND or NOT to OFFEND lies solely in the hands of Tyrone, who has graciously removed the signature anyway. Tyrone, bud you will get over it. Move on.
I have started a thread here:
Please knock yourselves out discussing religion:
http://www.tropicalaquarium.co.za/showthread.php?t=605
Tyrone's sig was not removed "graciously". Admin can change sigs.
Rory, are you not transgressing on the rules you so diligently compiled?? It says there " no discussing religion" or as I said before, can the hierarchy make new rules?
Tyrone's signature discussion is to do with freedom of speech, not so?
I am not convinced that Tyrone's signature is offensive. thought it gave me a little insight into Tyrone's views on life as "he sees it" and in no-way felt threatened. Only people who feel threaten especially with regards to Freedom of speech/religion etc, act unilaterally and say they speak for all. These are normally small minded bigots like Mugabe and Hitler, not fish hobbyist surely.
Arent we are bigger than this? Everybody subconsciously or consciously punts their views/product. That is what makes us unique and different.
If something offends, it is also the "one who is offended" to deal with you as an indiv, and not speak or make blanket decisions on "our behalf", who are are tolerant and accepting of people who have different views. Blanket rules like this seems a gross Humans rights violation.
The last I heard, we still live in a democracy. Will we also be told as to what username WE MUST USE too?
This has unfortunately become a personally issue between Admin and Tyrone. A matter that should have been dealt with privately. The Freedom of Choice to OFFEND or NOT to OFFEND lies solely in the hands of Tyrone, who has graciously removed the signature anyway. Tyrone, bud you will get over it. Move on.
Rory, are you not transgressing on the rules you so diligently compiled?? It says there " no discussing religion" or as I said before, can the hierarchy make new rules?
Tyrone's signature discussion is to do with freedom of speech, not so?
Wait so you want me to change the rule about religious/political discussion (including links/signatures/etc) but you also don't want anyone to make new rules??
Man I'm confused now. How about you send me a full set of rules you would deem appropiate for a tropical aquarium forum and I'll implement that?
Have said too much already. Have a great weekend everyone
Seems to me like everyone loves to point out my flaws and everyone knows better than me yet not a single one of you has actually offered a constructive solution.
I started this forum to discuss fish. Not defend my position on whether religion belongs on a tropical fish forum and whether we should have freedom of speech and whether the word discussion includes signatures. Frankly every time there's an issue there's a whole bunch of people who love jumping in, criticising me for pretty much everything I do on this forum, threaten to leave, say this forum is the worst forum ever etc, it's always mods/admin vs everyone else etc. Everyone in this thread thinks that I'm the only one voicing an opinion contrary to popular opinion however other people have complained to me in private. You guys can't even argue/debate constructively about what should be allowed on a forum nevermind religion.
As for the mods/admin etc not a single one of you in this thread has volunteered your own time to be a mod on this forum even though almost everyone in this thread has the knowledge and clearly the time. Mods put in quite a bit of effort running a forum and basically always get flak for everything they do, not only on this forum, and not even only on tropical fish forums. I'm on forums for fish, photography, cars, IT, etc and every forum it's the same old story. If you have the stamina to be a mod please let me know, but I'll warn you in advance that you're going to be the unpopular kid on the block.
Hey guys,
Personally I think we are beating a dead dog... or beating on a rug with not dust. When it comes to religion and politics, we will NEVER agree, and no matter how braod minded a person can be... they will always have something to disagree on.
Rory, I appreciate the pro-active role you have played on this part, and I believe the other viewers have not seen, or are not aware of the Private messages between yourself and Tyrone. That's probably why it's called PRIVATE. (DUH?)
Needless to say, I accept that Tyrone was not instituting a religious debate or thread, but was purely stating that he is a Christian, but posting a verse as his signature. The fact that the signature was a link to another site is debatable, and I agree that that might have not been acceptable.
By the same token, I think we can all agree that based on the forum we have all made reasonably good 'friendships' and acquintences on the site... and although TASA is aimed at Tropical fish, I am glad to see 'off topic discussion'. Because we have all met in a very informal way online, sometimes it is nice to be able to have a chat with other people online in this type of way.
It has been very interesting topic of discussion to see everyone's viewpoint... but what is nice is that you kind of have an idea of what the person is like, and you just get an different side of that person coming through on the off topic threads.
Being offended or not offended is YOUR OWN CHOICE. When someone says something against your beliefs etc, it is YOUR choice to be offended. Tyrone did not intentionall offend anyone, and was not meaning to in any way. Anyone who was offended CHOSE themselves to be offended. Rory, I believe you dealt with Tyrone on a one-on-one basis because you were offended. I agree with everyone else that just because you yourself were offended, does not mean you can close the thread, cancel it or delete it. That is called dictatorship.
I think I speak for everyone here that we all appreciate the forum, and thoroughly enjoy interacting and learning from everyone. What we are saying is if you create the rules, then you need to be the first one to obide by them.
No where in your rules does it say we cannot have a philisophical, religious or political signature. It only says we should not include them in our discussions or threads. Something I believe Tyron has obided by.
Hey Rory,
My point was also that this is a tropical fish forum, so should be used as such, but it was also to highlight that if one persons signiture is to be Canned, then so should everyone elses that is not fish related. Or am I reading the rules/terms wrongly?
Maybe a better solution would be to totally remove the off topic discusion section, or just to emphasize that any article relating to hate speach, gratuatous sex, or such, should not be tolerated. As with the case for Tyronne, it would seem that there are very few who are offended by his Signiture, and perhaps these people who have complained, are only offended because they are uncomfortable with the posibility of God? This is a topic that does make people uncomfortable, and rightly so.
I don't think the idea was to start a topic on religion, and I don't believe that it is required here, but it may well be that a topic is started in private between two users, which I would happily encourage. I'll happily talk to any user over PM's about faith, but as stated earlier, believe that topics of any nature other than fish should maybe take a back seat and not be aired in open. Despite this, I would suggest that Tyronnes Sig be allowed as there is no Hate speach there, otherwise if his is deleted, then other philosophical sigs should be cut too.
Again Rory, I apologise if you have taken anything I say as a personal attack, that was not my intention, but rather to answer some of the points you raised. I think the very point that you are the creator of this forum, and the person who, along with misure Henk, points out when something is not within the bounds of the rules, means that you will cop all the flack, and I do sympaphise with you on that point. I just think that in this situation we are currently experiencing, that any action or reaction you take should be seen to be fair and unbiased. i believe this is why most people have reacted this way, as they feel that if someone can express an opinion on football for instance then a signiture not designed for open discussion should be allowed, especially when others have comments (some good, funny and or clever) like 'after Hydrogen stupidity is the most common element', or Henks one that I can't remember off hand? I'm all for these great pearls of wisdom, but believe that Tyronnes falls inline with this?
I would happily volunteer as a Mod, only for the fact that I have no clue with website admin. If you will teach me, I will happily learn!
Regards
Big G!
Zoom your post is well put however I think you have the wrong end of the stick on a few points.
Number 1 being my religion or lack thereof. Yes I am an athiest. No I was not the one who initially noticed Tyrone's signature, it was in fact Henk who as far as I know is a Christian (but I wouldn't really know because I don't make friends with people based on their religious or political associations, I made friends with Henk over some beers and some fish tanks)
Number 2:
I agree with everyone else that just because you yourself were offended, does not mean you can close the thread, cancel it or delete it. That is called dictatorship.
No threads or posts have been closed or deleted at all. It is all simply merged into this one thread.
Hey, is this thread doing weird things or is it my PC? I have Pages 3 and 4 on the thread, and they are both the same! Is this a gremlin? Or just me?
Cheers
Big G!
Number 2:
No threads or posts have been closed or deleted at all. It is all simply merged into this one thread.[/QUOTE]
Rory, 2 of the original threads were closed... and it took a few hours before they were condensed, so we interpretted it as being closed by administrator due to your offence.
As I've said from the beginning, you were right to challenge Ty on his signature, but I believe that was based on the link he had. So I'm not argueing with anyone or creating waves. Just having my say.
Rory, you have got a great forum here, some really good people involved helping, and I can thank a lot of what I have learnt on my aquarist abilities 90% on this forum.
And hey, let's look on the brighter side.... this thread has created a HUGE amount of followers... heehee. I't been enjoyable, to say the least.
Henk Hugo
15-05-2009, 15:58
so is mine but i also have a male that thinks its a dog....
just when i started enjoying this forum this happens....politics eish...
i want another cat btw, i've got one only
Linchpin
15-05-2009, 22:19
Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but this all started becaure of a signiture (that that doubled as a link)?
Rory's right, some of you people have way too much time on your hands...
If you don't like a signiture, don't read it, if its a link, don't click on it. If you truly are offended by something, PM the person first and if nothings resolved run along to the mods and admins and cry about it. They love dealing with petty complaints....note the sarcasm, these guys spend a *%@# load of time making sure this forum is running smoothly. Give it a rest people. This is a fish forum after all, yes yes it was posted in "Off The Topic" but these things should be delt with in private otherwise everyone will be at each others throats, or they'll continue being at each others throats. Leave your baggage at the door. The only things that should be considered as offensive should be racism, sexism (women shouln't be complaining here anyway, they should be in the kitchen cooking supper :D ), abusive or vulgar language, seal clubbing, defamation of character etc.
Political and religious views shouldn't be offensive, (they're views, freedom of choice) unless these views are forced apon people.
By the way, this being a fish forum and all I'd like to lodge a complaint with Rory, I'm offended that people are talking about cats here, CATS! :)
Oh and get rid of solex's signature, I don't want to hail Afroduck, I don't agree with his policies on DEE, Duck Economic Empowerment.
Oh and try to get solex to use normal plant names instead scientific ones, yes google is there but its a pain!
Thanks for a great forum and to the poor sods who have to run it ( except Henk, I'm still offended by the cat talk...)
Rory you have a great forum here. My only concern, is when the lines get fuzzy between what is acceptable and what isn't. Linchpin has a German signature. Clue what he has said,. It could be philosophical or abusive language or even Religious. Should it be removed? No, i dont think so. As said before it tells me a little about the person. There seems to be only tolerances for some and not for others on this forum. If you have a real problem with Christianity, due to CHOICE or a bad experience. Its yours to deal with, and not for you to unilaterally remove signatures(personal) and react badly when questioned on doing so. Nobody can question what a good job you are doing on the Forum. Keep up the good work. I thing that you and Tyrone should try and hook up and heal the relationship between you. I am convinced that you are both good people. Dont let pride get in the way.
Beautifully put Ross. I think just like money, pride is a poor master.
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