Apisto Sunburst Spawn!!!!!

[TankMaster]

So its been only a week of keeping apistos for breeding and they have already spawned on me ..

I just went to feed them when I saw the female bright yellow!!! . . . Upon closer inspection . . .about 20 orange coloured eggs on the inside of a PVC pipe which she was guarding . .

I am so excited!!!

TM

[Zoom]

Congrats!

[TankMaster]

They are still spawning . . .I might have caught them in the middle of it all . . cant wait to see how many other eggs appear tomorrow. . .

pics to follow . .

[Franssny]

WOW congrats bud !

[Lizid]

It is a great feeling seeing that happen, is it their first spawn? If so you might want to not get your hopes up they tend to eat the first batchs of fry, sorry to say :-( broke my heart when I first say it

[TankMaster]

Hope they have spawned before. They are my older pair so they probably have. . .not as a pair though.

The colour on the female is so freakn awesome!! first fish I bred that has orange eggs!!!

[PeterWest]

Fantastic TM

Pics Please

[Irma]

Congrats! My Blue Steel female just ate her fry :(

[TankMaster]

Yeah . .managed to get a few bad pics but will get some better ones tomorrow.

Will post pics tomorrow around lunch.

TM

---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 19:11 ----------

What I am interested in is feeding my apisto fry some cyclops . . .could this be fatal?

[TankMaster]

30 eggs . . .and counting

[Besh]

hey well done bru, im coming for scrambled eggs tomorrow lol

[azurekoi]

Dude...'bout the Cyclops....
Not as a first food...Infusoria(green water),Liquifry or tiny amounts of cooked egg yolk...
Cyclops fine once they start pecking at stuff and swimming around...

G'luck mate...

[TankMaster]

Yeah . . but liquifry in a 3ft tank? Is it worth my R70?

I have greenwater . . but there's cyclops in there . . . lets see If I can make a greenwater culture in like 4 days . .

TM

[azurekoi]

If a bottle of it @R70 can get you thru that critical first 3 - 5 days of freeswimming stage before you move them on to Cyclops and larger food...Hell yeah...
4 days for green water a bit short..but give it a go...Boil a banana skin - pour water in old tank outside and let cool...add more water and inoculate with some gunk from siphoning the gravel of your dirtiest tank - leave in sun and Voila!!!

[TankMaster]

I added 2 drops of ferts, hornwort with algae, and aged water in a 3L clear plastic container . . . . green away. .

Will the liquifry be effective in such a large tank?

How do I use liquifry . . clearly I have no idea . .

TM

[azurekoi]

just squirt it into the water - cant remember dosage now,but used it extensively on my angel fry in tanks with same volume as yours...worked for me...

[Zoom]

Liquifry is just a few drops... nothing hectic. But you need to start with it NOW. Not when they hatch.

[TankMaster]

will get Liquifry tomorrow so the greenwater feeding idea can be scrapped . . .

They will absorb their yolk sacs and then the BS hatching starts . .

[TankMaster]

The female ate half of the eggs . . I don't know why . .

Thankfully they will breed again in a few weeks . .

[Lizid]

Early parents in the species are a little confused, as to how and what they should do...

Give them time and you will eventually have fantasitc parents and they will be the best you will ever see...

[Big G]

Some of my Apistos laid eggs every two weeks!

As for feeding, Apistos do not require any foods like mentioned above, as they can take newly hatched BS from almost the word go! Well, at least from when their yolks are consumed!

Have fun, and I'm sure you'll have more soon!

Regards
G!

[TankMaster]

So now . . .she ate all the eggs . . :( . ..will see what happens in 2 weeks . .

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Guys,

There are a few things that I would like to add about this thread.

Firstly, Azurekoi, all dwarfs do not require infusoria or egg yolk as a first food, as a matter of fact feeding this will be very detrimental as such foods put a large demand on available oxygen and redox potential in an aquarium and can contaminate the tank leading to rotting of the eggs and then the fishes will eat them. Cyclops are not small enough for dwarf cichlid babies and do not have a sufficiently high nutritive value to get them growing properly. What big G has suggested, freshly hatched brine shrimps in quite large quantities are what is recommended. I use this for my Apistogramma aggasizzi and my Crenicara filamentosa and have had a lot of success with this. After the fry have grown a little, I start feeding high quality granulates, but I keep on feeding bs for quite a while as there are very few foods that can replace the nutritional value of freshly hatched bs.

Then you need to know that there a few types and species of dwarfs that have been bred and are not natural types. This includes all of the red (double and triple) types and sunset types of Apistogramma cacutoides as well as the red types of Apistogramma hongsloi. In order to breed these a lot of inbreeding has been used in other words producing offspring from closely related parents such as brothers and sisters. Inbreeding results in poor parenting in dwarf cichlids and this is why females eat eggs for example. Very often, when these fishes are multiplied in the Malaysia or Singapore the eggs are taken away from females and the young are raised artificially. If you do this for a single generation in dwarf cichlids then the parenting gets worse drastically and often the parents will repeatedly eat their eggs. This is the primary reason why Rams eat their eggs, their eggs are taken away from the parents in the East. Naturally raised fry grow to be excellent parents.

Another problem in keeping dwarfs is the forcing of pairs, and by this I mean that if you buy a male and female of these fishes they are almost never males and females that have actually chosen each other as mates. This is really important in dwarfs and you actually should start with a number of males and females in a tank for them to pair off properly. Forced pairs also often fight and the male bashes the female and eats the eggs.

Finally, you need to supply dwarfs with a darker tank and lots of hiding places in the form of plants or even oak leaves and low lighting. This simulates natural conditions and then they will have much greater success at breeding.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[Big G]

Hi Dirk,

Long time no speak! Just to derail the thread slightly here, but have Dwarf Chequerboards been re described? I've always known them as Dicrossis Filementosa! Is this wrong? Is it the whole Dicrossis family that have been reclassified or just Filementosa?

Sorry again for the hijack, we'll get back on track!

G!

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi Gareth,

Yes, good to hear from you.

Crenicara filamentosa is the older name for Dicrossus filamentosus (note spelling of both the genus and species name), and this genus name does apply to the whole genus. Actually the name was changed to Dicrossus only recently, about five years ago and older references would all use the genus name Crenicara. If you do a Google search you would still find that the older name is used extensively. However, you are right that Dicrossus is the valid new name for them at the moment.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[TankMaster]

A small update . .

Since shaunlventer did not confirm if he wanted my pair of Orange Flash Apistos I have moved them to another 3 foot to prepare them to breed. (Don't know if Linga wants the pair but anyways)

The older pair is showing signs of breeding again . . .hopefully none of the eggs get eaten this time. . kind of figured out why she ate them though. . .I left BOTH pairs in the tank when I saw the eggs. She might have been stressed by the "intruders" and ate her eggs?

Found some mosquito larvae in my algae tank today :). . had this tank running when I had ancistrus and plecos.. It''s a good thing I found this in time because I am actually low on good size bloodworms and only have about 2 cubes of frozen bloodworms . .all that are left from my breeding is few day old BW's

Dirk Bellstedt

Very informative :)

I actually had 4 of them in a tank and they paired off naturally.

The tank has no light and is covered on all (sides other than the front) with black plastic bags.

I purchased these Apistos from a Local breeder and they assure me that they are not the result of inbreeding.

I cant find oak leaves so I put in java moss just for some cover

I might have to get a few things from you later this year . . namely . . fine granules and some ferts ..

TM

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi TM,

Just a short reply and I wish to reiterate this again. It does not matter what the supplier of the apistos says, the sunbursts and the reds are inbred, they were selected from a very small number of fishes originally so even if the fishes that you have at the moment may not all be brothers or sisters, they are inbred, they were inbred before and have this problem, there is no getting away from that. If this is not clear, then you need to go and study some Genetics when you go to do that course in Ichtyology at Rhodes that you told us about.......

For the rest of the conditions your tank sounds fine. If you only have one pair in the tank that will be better as A cacutoides are quite aggressive towards one another.

If you need food, just ask, I supply someone in Durban and I will be sending him some food in about two weeks time from now.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[TankMaster]

Hi Professor

I see now. Initially, a breeder "Created" the sunburst gene through inbreeding. . . so their genes where messed up from day 1. . .

Ichthyology is going to have to wait for now. .not seeing too many jobs around. .

About the food ..

Great stuff! will contact you

TM

[Dirk Bellstedt]

TM,

If you google around for the original A cacutoides, you would find a mouse grey fish which occasionally would have some red dots in the tail fin, nothing else, and also not a general orange colour in the fins. So what the breeders did was they started selecting fishes for red colour and then started the inbreeding process because they crossed fishes that more and more red with each other. Somewhere the sunburst orange mutation appeared from the single red, then double red and finally triple red fishes and but all of these are closely related. Sunbursts and the reds can be crossed and you only get red or sunburst offspring, never a mix so these genes for the red are related in some way in any case, but they are all closely related to each other, with the nice color but the negative consequences re the breeding behaviour. However, they are not too difficult to breed, that is a fact as well.

Jobs for aquaculture are hardly ever advertised. Check out what is happening with companies like Irvine and Johnson, they are converting to aquaculture entirely as the sea is becoming completely over fished and fished out, they have a massive operation at Port Nolloth, I was there just a short while ago.... study aquaculture, my china, before you get too old.....

Will let you if I send food to Durbs so that you can get onto the bandwagon.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[TankMaster]

study aquaculture, my china, before you get too old.....Dirk

Hmmm...

Well I still have time to decide if I want to continue with photography (Probably wont)....

I want to study something related to my hobby here in Durban . .

Maybe Biochemistry or Zoology . .

Could you please PM me on what biochemistry entails?

Thanks

Regards

TM

[Linga]

hi TM, dont know how i missed this thread, congrats on the eggs (but also sorry they didnt make it :(, this time that is). and yes i still really want a pair of apistos. my nano should be up and running by midweek

[TankMaster]

Haha . . .okay then . .you can have the other pair that have not bred yet . .PM me and we can discuss.

Thanks

[TankMaster]

haha ..found my female guarding about 40 eggs just now . .

How long has it been? Maybe a week?

They have really grown with the live bloodworms . . . trying to make some beef heart mix as well . .

I expect her to do no more than eat the eggs again . . . but I am trying some heavy feeding just to prevent this . ..

TM

[Dirk Bellstedt]

TM,

Those eggs hatch in 48 hours so she has not had them for a week.

Live bloodworms and mossie larvae are good, but forget about beefheart mixes if you are preparing them yourself, they are far too polluting and will cause eggs to rot, the nutrient balance of home mixes is not right in spite of all you read, and the worst part of it is that hormones are fed in such large amounts to our cattle that this will certainly influence your fishes. I would advise that you feed freshly hatched bs to the parents as well as this has essential protein contents that no other foods have.

Also, remember that these fishes tend to learn so it may be that you lady will have success now. If she makes a flop of it again, I would advise that you introduce some dither fishes so that she can concentrate on chasing them away and not eating her eggs. Good fishes for these purposes are tetras such as neons, cardinals and glowlights.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[TankMaster]

I just covered the tank with a heavy black cloth . . I think I accidentally induced her to spawn early. My brother put the main switch off to all my tanks . .so no heat and filtration for over 10 hours . . the water cooled down to like 20 degrees and then I put the switch on which raised the temperature to 29 exactly . . . . the gradual rise in temperature might have caused the pair to get in the mood. . .don't know really . . .but hell . .they are easy breeders . .

TM

---------- Post added at 12:11 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

No she spawned AGAIN after 1 week . . only noticed the eggs now . .

[PeterWest]

Congrats (again) TM, hopefully they will get it right this time. What size tank are you keeping they in?

[TankMaster]

Hey PW

Each pair has their own 120L (std 3ft) tank with PVC pipes, moss and caves . .

I want to try and get some pics . . very hard in greenish water with no lights . . :(

TM

[TankMaster]

Spawn 2 - Day 2

All of the eggs still seem to be there. Still feeding the pair well so they don't eat the eggs . . . .

[Zoom]

Just be careful you don't overfeed TM. You don't want to land up polluting the water. Any major disturbance, (Like doing an emergency water change due to polluted water) could cause them to eat the spawn again.

[Xtreme Wife]

Congrats and good luck!!!

[TankMaster]

SPAWN 2 - DAY 3

So It's been 2 days and I just found 12 wrigglers!!!! Alive and being taken care of my mom . .

Time to hatch some BS . .

TM

[PeterWest]

Congrats TM, I REALLY WANT PICS

[TankMaster]

Spawn 2 - Day 4

Babies are doing well. There are 13 wrigglers in the tank .

PW . . .I will try bro . . the water is green ATM because of the outdoor light . and there's some algae .. but I will see what pics I can get . .good or bad . . ..

TM

[TankMaster]

Spawn 2 - Day 5

The babies are growing really fast. They should be ready for BBS in 48hrs. Hatching starts today . .

I'm not sure if I should lower the water level or not . . . .Advice?

Oh and here's the best pic I could get . . .

5515

Hope you can see the little buggers . . anyone have a count on the fry? Not sure if its 12 or 14 . .

TM

[PeterWest]

Looking Good, I count 14

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Don't change the water level, don't change anything, if you do the mother is likely to eat the fry so be very careful.

Once the mother is swimming around with the fry you can start feeding her and the fry freshly hatched bs. Start culturing them now. I have a spawn of A aggasizzi that have just gone free swimming and I have started feeding bs......

Kind regards,

Dirk

[TankMaster]

SPAWN 2 - DAY 6

The fry have grown so much but they are still wrigglers :(. They grow so fast on their yolk sack so BS should boost their growth even further.

Now that they are more visible, I count 15 fry but lets see if I can grow them to about 2cm first, then I will count . . .

I'm really excited about the hatch . . .I wonder when they will swim freely . . :)

TM

[TankMaster]

Oh . .and the parents have grown 2X the size since I got them . . .the males fins look like flames . . .I will try and get some pics later . .

TM

[Linga]

congrats man, awesome stuff

[TankMaster]

Spawn 2 - Day 7

Fry are now out of the cave and "hopping" around the tank. Mom is still watching over them. I lost count of how many fry are left (8-10) but hope at least 2 survive. Just put i some BBS in the tank with some eggs to hatch out over night.

Regards

TM

[TankMaster]

Hey

Just need some advice . . .

Will it be possible for me to breed apistos in 1,5ft tanks? I am running out of space and my xray tetras are ready to breed again . .

Should I breed the tetras in a 3ft and put an apisto pair in a 1,5ft or the opposite?

TM

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi TM,

What's all this foot stuff, have you gone American or something.....

So, in my metric terms, if you will forgive my sarcasm, I would recommend that you use the 45 cm tank for your tetras and your 90 cm tank for your Apistos. Why, tetras can be managed much more easily in a 45 cm tank, I mean water changes and cleanliness which is essential for breeding them, and Apistos need more space. What you may also find is that once the fry of the Apistos have reached a certain size the mother will spawn again and then the fry can scatter into the rest of the tank. I actually have found that I can keep more than one generation of fry with my Apistogramma aggasizzi in the same tank.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[TankMaster]

Spawn 2 - Day 9

The babies are doing really well . . .

I have a count of 6 . . . really more than I was expecting :)

I hope the pair has bigger spawns soon :)

TM

[TankMaster]

Just an update . ..

The babies are getting bigger . . they are about 8mm now . . .

I left a bowl of unhatched Brine shrimp eggs in a bowl with some raw rice . .and now the brine shrimp have hatched and grown 3 X the size of newly hatched ones. . useless feed but my first attempt at growing them . .. .I am the first person to use raw rice as a food source too . .lol

[TankMaster]

Fry from spawn 2 have vanished but to my surprise . . 80+ eggs in a PVC pipe :) . . .]]

Spawn 3 day 1

Eggs look good. The female should eat all the infertile eggs by tomorrow :)

TM

[TankMaster]

5617

The male responsible for the spontaneous breeding . . .:) (Shot @ high ISO :()

Spawn 3 day 2

The eggs are being taken care off again. Sad to see the fry from the previous spawn being eaten. I plan to move the fry once they hit 5mm . . . this will prevent any of them being eaten.

TM

[TankMaster]

SPAWN 3 - day 3

I thought the female ate all the eggs when I saw the PVC pipe empty. It turns out that she moved them into another pipe . . .talk about choosy :D

I am planning to sell this pair of apistos . .any offers? Please PM

TM

[TankMaster]

The pair that I sold to Linga just spawned today . . . . I was not planning on even spawning them . . . gosh . . .

When the pair is sold I plan to siphon the wrigglers and put them with the other pair because she is also with wrigglers . . .

Really excited but really about the spawn but more excited that Pair 2 has a new home :) . .now I have space for a grow out :)

[TankMaster]

I've lost track of spawns now . . .

Here's some pics

FEMALE FROM PAIR 1 WITH WRIGGLERS

5629

FEMALE FROM PAIR 2 WITH EGGS

5630

MALE FROM PAIR 2 LOOKING MEAN AND BEAUTIFUL (My custom strain Pearl Blue Guppy)

5631

[TankMaster]

Any ideas how to rid my tanks of that "candy floss" algae . .

[fishcrazy]

Clean with a sponge or drop in some ancistrus........btw a strain is one that can be bred consistantly and true to the original,so if you continue to breed the same form and colour continully THEN I would presume that you have created your own strain...

[TankMaster]

I cant put Ancistrus is a breeding tank . . . I've already had problems with eggs getting eaten . . .

[Dirk Bellstedt]

Hi TM,

I have had a busy week in which I could not reply, but I would like to comment.

I would never have my tanks as bright as you have for breeding dwarfs, and I would never use those white PVC pipes. I use terracotta pots, and tanks with a fine filter sand substrate and mosses for protection. I would not be surprised why this is the reason why they are eating their young. In nature, dwarf cichlids live in streams with a dark leaf litter bottom substrate and poor light as the streams are in the forest.

I also think that these fishes, and I am referring specifically to the sunburst and triple red A cacautoides, appear to have been manipulated beyond the point where they can raise their young naturally, if they are eating their young. This should not happen in dwarf cichlids, but maybe this is just because the tanks are not correctly set up.

Re your algae, if you had reduced light and if your aquaria were really acidic you would never have this algae.

I think that you should consider some changes to your aquaria so that they can raise the fry naturally. Sorry to sound pessimistic, but these are just simply some comparative comments.

Kind regards,

Dirk

[TankMaster]

Hey Professor

I made sure the ph was <6.5 and it is between 6 and 6.5. The moss-ish algae came from the java moss in the tank.

Again, these tanks are blacked out on all sides except for the front. I only removed the canopy to take pics that's why the light seems so bright AND ISO1600 . . .

I hear what you are saying. These fish are messed up in a way but they are really awesome to watch socialize with each other.

As soon as the fry are big enough they are going to be removed . . but I was advised to remove the parents rather than the fry.

I will keep you guys updated

TM