View Full Version : Discus Questions
I went around, as i said i would over the weekend and went looking for new Discus to add to my tank. I found nothing! I have been searching the net and i have some new questions which i hope guys here will be able to answer. First of all, breeders refer to "domestic" or "cultivated" discus and "Wild" discus. What essentially is the difference as the "wilds" seem to all be tank bred anyway? I also hope to get an answer as to Heckle discus? Are they a seperate species to other discus as everywhere i read they seem to be referred to as "very difficult" to keep. Why? Would i be able to keep Heckle Discus in a tank along with other Discus? Would i be able to keep "wild" Discus in a tank with cultivated discus? This is all confusing, and i want to get my answers before i start requesting fish from Dolphin. Essentially, did me mixing Pigeon bloods with other discus contribute to the problem i had when they fell sick, or is that totally unrelated? I am beginning to wonder whether we should not keep something alot less complicated, like angels or malawi's. But then again nothing quite jumps at you as a tank full of discus.
SalmonAfrica
14-07-2010, 16:26
Hey John
I'm by no means a discus expert, nor have I ever kept them before, but I do read up on them with much regularity because I fear I might be taking an interest in them. :p
First of all, breeders refer to "domestic" or "cultivated" discus and "Wild" discus. What essentially is the difference as the "wilds" seem to all be tank bred anyway? I also hope to get an answer as to Heckle discus?
As far as I know, 'domestic' strains within the trade are those with the colours which won't likely be found in the wild: Malboro, Pigeon Blood etc. 'Wild' types are bred in captivity, but are kept more to the colours that are what you could call natural, being shades of brown, occasionally with blueish hues as far as I've seen (real wild discus demand a fortune).
Heckel discus are a seperate species, and don't always show up as often as the other discus species - I believe Heckel's discus is known as Symphysodon discus while the other is S. aequifasciatus. They can be trickier to keep, just being a little more demanding as far as food and water is concerned.
Would i be able to keep Heckle Discus in a tank along with other Discus?
Preferably not. As seperate species being kept in the same tank, the chances of them interbreeding increases, which is something you don't want. As a discus keeper, it's in your interest to keep the S. discus strain as pure as possible. I have seen people keeping the two together without problems, but I really wouldn't want them breeding.
Would i be able to keep "wild" Discus in a tank with cultivated discus?
A lot of people do. As far as I know, the 'wild' colour discus and the 'cultivated' are all of the same species, and crossings of the two would bear little consequence. However, be careful of mixing colours, as the mixed young of the discus are sometimes viewed as a lower quality, sometimes not.
did me mixing Pigeon bloods with other discus contribute to the problem i had when they fell sick, or is that totally unrelated?
It may be. Some discus are badly treated at the shop or in transit from supplier to shop, and as a result can become stressed and fall ill. Remember that discus are rather susceptible to illness, so you have to be very careful when adding new stock.
Hope I helped
Tim
IMO if you are a novice it may be better to keep Angels or similar Cichlids (i.e. Rams) to familiarise yourself with habits etc. Discus are also Cichlids. I would aim to get a system going where you have complete control of your water supply and quality. A RO system with a water reservoir is a good investment if you are going to keep discus. Search the forum for more info. Once you have all your things in place and have had a stable system for awhile, you could look at Discus. Bearing in mind that the parameters in which discus are kept is very different from most fish.
Wild discus are very rare and unless you really know your stuff, I would not even consider them.
At the end of the day the Discus you get must be what you like. The main thing is to get them from a reputable supplier. Patience is also key. If the supplier is able to get what you need, they will probably have to quarantine them for a few weeks. It is a good idea to get involved at this stage of the process. You will see first hand what losses if any take place and you will be aware of any other conditions that may influence your decision on the quality of the stock. Also you could post pics of the discus you want to buy, and I am sure forum members will be able to raise any concerns if there are any. Discus are a long term investment and good preparation will make it rewarding in the end.
Regards
Vince aka Scaly
Apologies. I did some checking and see that you have a RO system running already.
From my understanding, it is not clear whether Heckels are actually a different species altogether or just a Subspecies? There are too many similarities associated between 'species' to be a completely seperate species, but there are enough differences to distinguish them from other 'Discus Species'.
As for mixing species, the main problem is where they originate from, and when they are introduced? If all fish are sourced from the same region and are introduced at the same time, then there is less chance of problems, but if you bought one kind from say an Asian supplier, and then a few months later added some more from say an American supplier, then there could be issues. This is because of the bacteria that these fish can carry, which the fish coming from Asia have maybe developed a degree of immunity to, but the American ones may never have been exposed to, or vice versa, and so the Discus get sick.
Just to clarify that point, getting the fish from the same supplier does not gaurentee that the supplier has gotten them from the same breeder or locality.
Maybe also look at getting some from the Prof? He is currently sitting on a number of babies from both his Alencer Reds and Blue Diamonds (I think thats the right Strain?)! He has shipped throughout SA before. Otherwise, Dolphin would definately be able to source you several different types, pretty much every type under the sun!
Hope that helps?
Regards
G!
I agree with everyone John,apart from a few things. Heckels, according to Heiko Bleher who is the self-proclaimed authority on Wild Discus, should not be kept together with other Discus. Its got nothing to do with breeding though, as breeding them is very difficult. Bleher holds that Green and Heckel Discus are different to brown and blue, and that Domestics come from only blue and brown discus. Therefore according to him they should not be mixed. I had a similar discussion with Prof dirk last week, and we both agree that Bleher cannot be right, as Greens were used in some Domestic strains (leopardskins) and a cross between a heckel and blue/brown essentially led us to the Turquoise Discus. I have never kept Heckels but have become increasingly interested in them. You can off course buy tank bred 'wild' discus which would give you colours you'd find in the wild, without the hassle of 'fixing' them. I doubt though that Heckels will be one of those. I agree with Scaly, first keep Domestics for a long time before venturing into Wild caught fish. They can be very problematic!
Hi JohnJ,
I think this is the article Marco refer to.
I had promised to talk about what is being done wrong with wilds in Italy, Europe and the world and I want give avery important advice again (as I mentioned some of it earlier):
1. I think by now everyone knows, that there are 3 discus species living in nature: Heckel-discus (S. discus), the green discus (S. aequifasciatus) and the brown/blue discus (S. haraldi) and each one of the 3 species lives in different water habitats/parameters, this is very well demonstrated in my Bleher’s Discus book Volume 1 (and people should read).
2. The fact, of the 3 living in nature each in a different chemical water parameter, proves that the wild fishes have adapted during evolution to such an environment. And it means they need (require) it. (Actually I will talk about this during my lecture in Montreal, and some scientists already say now – after my discovery – that the chemical water parameters and the habitat can help to identify species, a total new approach for species-taxonomy worldwide, something no one had ever looked into before.) All I want to say and advice you all very strongly:
– keepHeckel-discus ONLY with wild Heckel-discus (if you breed them, naturally you can keep the offspring together with them);
– keep green discus ONLY with wild green discus and the offspring if you want naturally also, but do not mix them with other species nor with hybrids;
– keep brown and blue discus together if you want but do NEVER mix those wilds with anyone of the two species the above.
Now, you can, if you really insist place the latter (browns and blues) together with tank breed discus, simply because most of the so called hybrids come all from this species (S. haraldi) and very rarely from one of the other two species. But naturally I do not recommend it. The danger of infections, the danger of contamination with parasites, bacteria’s, etc. is much higher by mixing anyone of the 3 wild species, than if you keep them separate. And it is a simple question to answer: were they live in nature (in their parameters), they have their own bacteria’s, etc. which they have been grown up with, which they can live with, which their immune system can cope with very well. But this (bacterial, parasitic) community is totally different from one species habitat to the next species habitat. Therefore please remember that. The best way to compare: Amazon Indian’s have lived for millenniums isolated and flourished, their immune system was adequate to their environment. When the first white man arrived there were about 6 million Indians in Amazonia living well (little over 500 years ago). With the white man his own bacteria’s, parasites, virus’, etc. and the Indians started to die like fly’s. Their immune system through the millenniums never had to confront those different bacteria’s, virus’s, etc. In a few hundred years they reduced to hardly 100,000 today. The very same is the case with your discus. Please remember that.
Naturally, I have also mentioned in my lessons, it is very important to know where your wilds come from. That is, who imported them, acclimatized them, etc. If the importer mixed the species already, you might have a problem. So be very careful and check your source.
Always
Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com (http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/)
Another post by Heiko Bleher
"Blue" is the name Schultz gave 1960 for the than named subspecies S. ae. haraldi and Brown for the than subspecies S. ae. axelrodi. But he (or the man who gave him the specimens) mixed up the locations completely and therefore we (Géry & Bleher, 2004 in Bleher 2006) did correct the type localities:
Blue (= S. haraldi) = origin from the lower Rio Purus basin;
Brown (= S. haraldi) = origin Tocantins river basin. But as you understood both are the same and you can find both almost in all placed together (is the same species), same when you breed them, you may have some with more stripes and some with less stripes, some with none or only un-significant tiny fractions of (blue)stripes.
With other words: Blue is considered a Discus (S. haraldi) which has over most of its body stripes (blue stripes normally). And if those stripes cover the entire body from front to back without interruption we named those exceptional Blue Discus = "Royal Blue).
Browns are considered brown discus (also S. haraldi) without pattern (stripes); with very few stripes in the lower and upper (head) region; and those with some on the forehead (which they have most of the time anyhow).
But remember, if you breed so called browns, you may well have babies which are "blue", at least some. And also vice versa: if you have Blue Discus (with many stripes or even Royal Blue discus) you may well have babies which are brown... without any blue stripes or few.
I hope you get it. And remember: unfortunately the Internet is NOT the answer for every question and never will be.
In any event they are nice discus.
Always
Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com (http://www.aquapress-bleher.com)
mattie, Bleher's Discus volume 1 is very much on my B.day wish list. . .just hope the family give in and get it for me. I'm sure its a remarkable book to read. Pity its so expensive. Apparantly in Vol 2 he will be divulging Schmidt-focke's notes on Heckel breeding.
That will surely be a great birth day present.
I think the prof. also said somewhere that he still wants to buy the book but like you said its pretty expensive.
I'll have a look in the library to see if they have a copy perhaps.
Dirk Bellstedt
16-07-2010, 08:13
Hi Guys,
I have watched this thread develop, and the information that has been given here to poor old John is nothing else than highly confusing.
To get to your original questions: Firstly, yes, there are a number of different species of discus of which the Heckel Discus (note spelling of Heckel not Heckle, this name comes from an Austrian naturalist who was the first to collect discus in the Amazon and they were this species) is the one species which is most distantly related to the rest. It can hybridize with the other species and hybrids with this species have been the origin of all the brightly coloured blue turquoise discus. The first person to really breed discus on a repetitive basis was a German gynacologist, Dr Eduard Schmidt-Focke and one of the crosses he made was a Heckel crossed with a blue discus.
Heckel discus are more difficult to keep they require to be kept in soft water on an ongoing basis and they require a lower pH, they are also more sensitive to diseases.
Wild-caught discus are imported from the Amazon on a regular basis to particularly Europe and Japan, and they are also imported regularly to South Africa. You might not see them in your LFS, but they certainly are in the wholesalers tanks, I see them there! Why, because the hybrids have often lost their parenting properties because of artificial raising which was started by Jack Wattley and this has resulted in many hybrid strains being unable to raise their own young. A second reason for the import of wild-caught fishes is because they are cheaper than large hybrid discus to import, and thirdly because there have been new wild colour forms that have been discovered in recent years which have different colours to the hybrids. Red-spotted green discus have for example been used to develop leopard discus and Curipera Alencer Red discus are for example the most red of all the wild types and there has been an ongoing movement to try to breed completely red discus.
Your question about whether your pidgeon blood discus will infect other new fishes is highly relevant, they can infect new fishes and new fishes can again infect your fishes. Everyone keeping discus should know that if they introduce discus from a different source they have the potential of having a disaster just as John and Marco have recently had. At the same time as having said this, it means that if you get your discus from the same breeder this problem largely falls away.
I keep wild-caught fishes with my cultivated fishes and I have no problem in doing so. You have to be careful with parasites and you have to know how to diagnose diseases properly to identify problems that they may have and you also need to know which medications to use. Discus are highly sensitive to most off the shelf medications and these damage discus more than they do good. Most anti-parasite medications no longer work on discus, because they have been used on them for so long in Penang or Singapore that the parasites are resistant to the medication in the first place.
Heckel discus are difficult to breed, but then any wild-caught discus are difficult to breed. You can trigger hybrid discus to spawn quite easily through temperature changes (I will answer that thread later), but wild-caught do not respond so easily. As long as you can keep your discus in soft water with a low pH you can keep Heckel discus with any of the other types. The chances of wild-caught Heckels spawning are very low in any case.
You have to be very careful with RO water, and unless you are really in an area with very hard water (and Gauteng does not have very hard water), you must be careful to soften the water too much as you can cause the next set of problems with this. Too soft water is very plastic, the pH can jump up and down very easily as it has no buffering and discus are very sensitive to big pH jumps.
I also want to warn you not to accept that what Heiko Bleher has written is absolutely correct. He is not scientifically trained and although you can come to many conclusions from careful observation there are certain things that you as a non-scientist just simply cannot do. The fields of taxonomy (naming species) and of water chemistry are highly complex, and with all due respects to Heiko, he is not qualified to make statements about his. I and many others would differ about which discus to keep together. In the German discus press and on forums his opinions are not viewed to be absolutely correct. He does make very good recommendations, about that I have no doubt, but there are some of his interpretations such as for example his naming of discus based on water conditions which are highly contentious. Elsewhere is his book he states that discus are highly adaptable to water conditions and they vary massively from winter to summer, so this is where there is room for doubt.
Main thing is John, you should be very careful when buying new discus not to make the same mistake again. In general, petshop owners in South Africa are extremely poorly informed about keeping discus, and buying discus from them is not to be recommended. I would go so far as to say that most discus problems in South Africa arise from pet shop owners that do not know what they are doing and I regularly get calls and emails from persons that have run into some huge crisis for this reason.
I would also advise against the internet as a source of information as noboby checks the correctness of what is written, so how should you know if the advice is correct or not.
Kind regards,
Dirk
Morning Guys :ciao:
I agree with all you guys keeping them with domestic or not keeping them with domestic, I have asked my self that some question over and over but then you have to ask you self, this is the kings off the tropical fish tanks and they look orsam together my personal opinion is if you have the time and the $$$ to pushes four or five big tanks to keep al the different strains ?? If you have I envy you I would love to do that one day!!! I have attached some pic's of my tank just to show you how significant these Fish are so I say Y not put them together , I am lucky though, my heckle are a breeding pair I have got two breeding pairs in my tank. Mmmm five big tanks, WOW one day!!!!!
What I can add is that one's the Heckels go in they take charge.
PS Thanks for all your advice Proff!
What do you guys say together or not together ???????? :huh:
Boo, very nice! I think what Prof is saying, with care to possible cross contamination etc, which is something that can be handled and largely prevented with proper quarintine principles, and then finding GREAT water conditions that will suit them, I also dont see a problem keeping them together. Its already a big controversy as to what tank mates can be added to a discus tank. Now suddenly Bleher has us questioning whether Discus is a good tankmate for Discus? I, as I said in the temperature thread find some of Bleher's statements contradictory. I read responses he wrote to a guy who bred Heckels at a claimed ph of 6.7 and 30'C and his response was like, 'great,well done. Yes many people make the mistake of keeping Heckels in too low a ph' Yet he himself says thats one reason NOT to keep them with Domestics.
Hi Marco
Yip I am running on 6.5 and 30 and they are as happy as pigs in mud and if you look at the lines you can see that the one with the red top fin is the dominant male in the tank
Just a question Boo, when you say the Heckels are a pair, have they spawned or did you buy them as such. Both would be incredible as no one would probably consider selling a Heckel pair, and also they are hectically difficult to get to breed. I ask out of real interest.
No got them as a pair and they don't leave each others side.
But you havent gotten them to spawn yet? It is apparantly very difficult to do so. . . Sad thing is, we sometimes make assumptions with Discus and they turn out different. In my tank the dominant fish turned out to be a female of a pair that later spawned. Some females also sometimes pair with other females. You should actually give that pair a serious 'breeding try' If you can succeed you'd be one of very few. . .
Maro
That is my intention as soon as I am back in SA.
I don't want to set my wife up with an extra tank to fishsit!
that would help yes. . . thats great, give it a go, who knows maybe its a success!
Yip
That would be nice whole tank full of wild heckels
WOW
Dirk Bellstedt
16-07-2010, 19:42
Whilst we are on the topic of Heckels, I would like to remind you that there are different strains of Heckels as well. There are the so-called steel head Heckels which are more blue. They have grey markings between their horizontal lines. Then there are the fishes that have more reddish or brown markings between the blue lines as your fishes are Boo. Finally there are Heckels that have a much paler colour and have an almost yellow colour between the blue lines. These yellow fishes come from the river Abacaxis (Rio Abacaxis).
On top of all this there are also intermediates in nature. I have six red coloured wild-caught Curipera Alencer discus and one of them has the dark middle bar or the Heckel bar as we call it. It is well documented that the borders of what are defined as the different discus species overlap, and that what are referred to as species should rather be viewed to be races and not species as such.
In my capacity as a scientist, I do phylogenetic research in which we specifically study how different or similar species are. There has been a recent scientific publication in which the variation in discus in the Amazon has been analyzed (I could send this to interested persons if you send me a PM with a private email address as I would have to send this as a pdf attachment). The results of this study show that the different species, subspecies and races of discus are not clearly different on the genetic level and that the species boundaries are not clear cut, which is exactly what I have just mentioned above. They are however different in different areas, but not as species but rather as races. In my opinion, it is debatable whether there should be different discus species or whether they should be viewed to be one species (including the Heckels) with local varieties. Even the scientists differ in opinion about this. Heiko Bleher has actually redescribed another species of discus based on these results, Symphysodon tarzoo, but scientists do not agree about this at all, and this is all a matter of interpretation.
All of these arguments about discus species are however academic, my opinion on the matter is that all discus species are closely related and that this means that we can keep them together and the evidence is that they can interbreed without any problems.
Kind regards,
Dirk
Thats a great post Prof Dirk. Thanks. I was just about to be sarcastic, wanted to ask if Bleher says its ok to keep the 'different' heckel strains together.. . So if I understand you right, in human terms it would be like comparing Japanese to Indian, Arab to Eskimo. We all look a little different, live in different conditions, yet we all human and can live together and breed. The kids might not always be too good looking, yet they will be perfectly normal.
Dirk Bellstedt
16-07-2010, 20:41
Yes Marco,
I think the way you have explained this to us in simple terms is perfectly correct.
Kind regards,
Dirk
Hahahahah !!! Yes Proff , Marco you could not have sead it better.
Proff I still need to send you that Pm for the fish goodies sorry a bit hectic with all the travelling.
I will be back in SA at the end off the month, will give you a ring
Ps: Proff can you please send me that Article
Thank you
Dirk Bellstedt
17-07-2010, 07:45
Hi Boo,
Do send me a PM with your private email address please, with all these forum names I battle to keep track of persons proper names and I get so many requests for food that I cannot keep track, I am sorry.
Many thanks and kind regards,
Dirk
shakester
26-07-2010, 20:16
i thought discus didnt like change ,but they loved the new aquascape and water change ,they arnt as finicky as people say
Dirk Bellstedt
26-07-2010, 20:47
Hi Shakester,
I wish you would not make such confusing statements.
What are you actually saying to us, they don't like change but did like your change to the new aquascape. So what you are saying is that they do like change, or am I not understanding you.
Then you say that they are not as finicky as people say they are, what do you mean? Are they as easy as guppies or what? I get regular PMs, emails and phone calls from people that have disasters with discus, because they do not understand the basics, here you are saying they are not as finicky. They are finicky, otherwise everyone would be keeping them, so please do not try to over simplify discus, they are demanding fishes and require that you look after them with attention to detail and feeding. They are very definitely not guppies and anyone wanting to start keeping discus needs to first gain experience with other tropicals and then proceed to discus, not this nonsense of starting with discus and then having a disaster.
Kind regards,
Dirk
shakester
26-07-2010, 20:56
YES,i know but people make it seem that you need to put them in imported water from the Swiss allps ,and spend a million rands on maintainace ,which is not true at all ,i am not over simpifing discus you have to know about them and their requirements ,but not to lab specific precision accuracy ...
If you know discus which you do ,even if you stare at them they dont like it so you tell me if you fidgit with there enviro ,they wont be unhappy,they would but in my case they are so used to the tank they were not phased by this change
Dirk Bellstedt
26-07-2010, 21:11
Hi Shakester.
I fully agree with you that you do not need to go overboard with discus and that you can definitely keep them in conditions that do not require all the RO water and things that the petshops would like selling you. But it is as you say, you have to know about their requirements before you can keep them. So next time you write a mail please be careful to explain a little more if you say they "are not so finicky" because that can very easily be interpreted as "well I can go and buy some tomorrow, they look so nice, so they can go into the tank with my swords and mollies". I think this important and folks should take it into consideration discus are a definite step up from keeping normal tropicals, they are not so simple to keep.
I also by now know exactly what I can do with my discus, and what I cannot, in other words if I were to do too large changes they would react very negatively, but you can only gain this from experience. If an inexperienced person does things that are too drastic for discus then they can expect problems and these problems can crop up very quickly so for those who do not have experience in keeping discus, beware, you can easily loose all your discus if you do something they cannot cope with.
Kind regards,
Dirk
shakester
26-07-2010, 22:15
thanx for your understanding ,what are definite signs of discus being unhappy ?
Can I Keep a discus with oscars?
no Oosie, please dont try too.
Why I am asking..someone wants to give me 3 as she cannot keep them alive(widow).I know the temperature is high for discus, my oscars run on 26deg c, I also have a deacon with the oscars, (poor mans discus) and it is quite happy with the oscars.
shakester
27-07-2010, 15:30
if you do not know enough about discus requirements ,then do not attempt .
SalmonAfrica
27-07-2010, 15:38
It won't work, oosie.
Oscars are large, boistrous and messy fish. They are likely to bully (and possibly injure and kill) the Discus, and the amount of waste that they produce will cause problems with keeping your water clean enough for Discus.
Green deacons aren't closely related to Discus, despite the common name of 'poor man's discus'. Deacons tend to be a little bit more tolerant of the mentioned bullying and messiness of oscars, and can be quite messy themselves, especially as they get larger.
Oosie, Severum's are called 'poor mans discus' yet in temperament and requirements differ greatly from Discus. They are much tougher and resilient and not as shy and sensitive. Oscars can be agressive and will dominate Discus to death. You should consider this and either not take the discus but give it to someone or get rid of the Oscars
Why I am asking..someone wants to give me 3 as she cannot keep them alive(widow).I know the temperature is high for discus, my oscars run on 26deg c, I also have a deacon with the oscars, (poor mans discus) and it is quite happy with the oscars.
Hi oosie
Please dont you will kill them faster then you put them in the tank please do a lot of research on Discus before you do that (please)
SalmonAfrica
27-07-2010, 16:08
On another point, it's not always that you can keep deacons with oscars, because they don't get on all the time; nine times out of ten it'll be the oscar doing the harassing. Size wise, food wise, and messiness-wise, they're quite compatible.
@ Oosie - Oscars and Discus are a definite no-no! Like the other guys have said, they are far too dominant for Discus. They mess alot. Discus like clean water.
Please, rather take the Discus to a fellow fish keeper who can properly care for the discus, rather than stick them with oscars! I'm sure somebody who has Discus already, would be able to adopt them and care for them. I wouldn't take them to the LFS either.
Good luck.
Dirk Bellstedt
27-07-2010, 16:29
Hi Guys,
I would strongly advise against keeping discus with oscars and severums. It may be argued that they come from the same river system and that they co-occur in nature, but discus need a lot of food and are shy eaters whilst severums and particularly oscars are very aggressive eaters, the discus will just simply not get anything to eat and will go into reverse.
What you also need to consider is that Oscars and severums carry flagellate organisms which they do not suffer from very much, I have seen Oscars with hole in the head disease (the result of such an infection), but discus are far more sensitive to this disease, and will die from it if you starve them on top of it.
So, as far as I am concerned, forget about keeping these fishes with discus.....
Kind regards,
Dirk
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