Lighting question

[brentnorm]

I am looking to upgrade my lighting. Would like to get my plants growing well. I have a 1.5m community tank. Any suggestions?

[Henk Hugo]

you can add some 54watt T5 tubes. they are just under 1.2m long. Osram makes a dual tube ballast. how deep is the tank?

[brentnorm]

It's 600mm deep. Who would sell a nice fitting? How many T5 s' and what intensities?

[TyroneGenade]

About 4 4 foot tubes should do it for most plants to be happy. Use plain Osram cool white for the tubes towards the rear and something like a Hagen PowerGlo for the front lamps to give your tank a pleasing colour. However, unless you are going to make sure your plants have a proper substrate and enough CO2, all that light will go to waste.

I got Hygrophila "peeling" (shedding bubbles of O2 from the leaves) in my 1.2 m planted tank using 2 4 foot cool white tubes. The substrate was river sand and there was not filter so to speak, just a powerhead circulating the water.

tt4n

[Henk Hugo]

theres some expensive T5 fittings out there... or ask Liftcrazy how he did his DIY one. i am seeing him later - i'll ask him to post a reply here

[brentnorm]

About 4 4 foot tubes should do it for most plants to be happy. Use plain Osram cool white for the tubes towards the rear and something like a Hagen PowerGlo for the front lamps to give your tank a pleasing colour. However, unless you are going to make sure your plants have a proper substrate and enough CO2, all that light will go to waste.

I got Hygrophila "peeling" (shedding bubbles of O2 from the leaves) in my 1.2 m planted tank using 2 4 foot cool white tubes. The substrate was river sand and there was not filter so to speak, just a powerhead circulating the water.

tt4n

Tell me more about CO2 and what I need. Really want the plants to do well.

[carl p]

if u want 2 do CO2 make u'r own little machine by taking a 2liter coke bottle dril hole in cap place a air hose connector nipple on it and seal with silcone or pratley putty or gluegun, take another 500ml coke bottel and make 2 holes in cap with 2 nipples and seal, on the one nipple in the 500ml coke, put a piece of air tube inside that runs to the botom (this is youre overflow) connect 2L bottel with the nipple on the 500ml thats got the piece of airline inside that goes to the botom of bottel. on the 500ml other niple take a length of airline of wich ever length to reach the tank with a airstone on it, now take 1 pack of yeast and half a cup of sugar and 750ml of warm not boiling water mix and put in 2L. AND WATCH THE BUBBLES OF CO2 IN U'R TANK,

oh and its going to lower ur ph

[Philfarm]

take 1 pack of yeast and half a cup of sugar and 750ml of warm not boiling water mix and put in 2L.

oh and its going to lower ur ph

That mix would last a day at max, i would say about a tea spoon of yeast to four cups of sugar it will last much longer and wont produce as strong a flow of Co2..


Carl you also bring up the point of it lowering the ph, this in itself isnt much of an issue the problem comes at night when your plants aren't using the Co2 this causes ph swings that are very bad for your fish and not great for sensitive plants either, also if the tank isnt heavily planted the Co2 could reach saturation and kill all the fish, also you would need high lighting and heavy fertilisation otherwise you start to notice all sorts of deficientcies with the high growth rates..

Reading back on what iv written it sounds negative but Co2 is (in my opinion) one of the most important ingreadients for a planted tank, the benefits far out weigh the cons, its just that DIY can be dangerous for beginners and pressurized is just too expensive for most people. So its just a warning to do as much research as you can befor you go for it...

Regards,
phil..

[Henk Hugo]

or you can just add a liquid source of carbon....

[brentnorm]

or you can just add a liquid source of carbon....


Please elaborate

[Henk Hugo]

oops - forgot that part. Seachem makes a products that add the carbon that you need in a liquid form.


Flourish Excel (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/FlourishExcel.html)™ is a source of bioavailable organic carbon. All plants require a source of carbon. This is typically obtained from CO2, but, may also be derived from simple organic compounds (such as photosynthetic intermediates). Therefore, one can derive a substantial benefit with the use of Flourish Excel™ either alone or in conjunction with CO2 injection.

[TyroneGenade]

...i would say about a tea spoon of yeast to four cups of sugar it will last much longer and wont produce as strong a flow of Co2..

I would go for brewers yeast which you mix into the solution after it has cooled to room temperature. This will continue to ferment for weeks and weeks... You need only add some sugar mixed with marmite (in essence, yeast extract) now and then. The live yeast will grow and multiply and not need replacing. All you need do is do a "water change" on the reactor and add some fresh medium.


Carl you also bring up the point of it lowering the ph...

CO2 + H2O <=> H2CO3 <=> H+ + HCO3-

If the tank is well aerated this will not be a problem. While CO2 can take the pH down to about 3.6 in an unaerated and unbuffered tank, the moment you add aeration it will drive the CO2 off. CO2 gas' solubility in water is very low. Only if it ionizes to H+ and HCO3- has it got any "staying power". Simply turn the aeration up at night.


...also if the tank isnt heavily planted the Co2 could reach saturation and kill all the fish..

CO2 is a scarce resource in aquatic environments, aquatic plants will tend to fix CO2 at night as malic acid rather than release it into the aquarium. This includes the CO2 they produce from their metabolism. The problem is that the plants are now also using O2 and can out compete the fish for it. Again, this problem is solved by increasing the aeration.

CO2 cannot force O2 from hemoglobin unless the blood pH falls as well. O2 has a much higher affinity for hemoglobin than CO2. So much so, that without the Bohr Effect, the drop in pH triggering the dissociation of O2 from hemeoglobin and the binding of CO2, very little O2 would be released in the blood. A small change in pH can bring about the Bohr effect and since fish are to some extend an open system where the environmental pH will affect the blood pH the water's pH is of some importance.

Adding some shell grit or oyster shells or dolomitic lime to the filter or substrate would help keep the pH from crashing (though it will upset your Cryptocorynes).

Having said all this, running Walstad (of Ecology of the Planted Aquarium fame) style tanks I have always had good plant growth and never had to supplement with CO2.

Tyrone

P.S. you will have to google Ecology of the Planted Aquarium for yourself, as this stupid forum setup still prevents me from posting links.

[brentnorm]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.

[Philfarm]

I would go for brewers yeast which you mix into the solution after it has cooled to room temperature. This will continue to ferment for weeks and weeks... You need only add some sugar mixed with marmite (in essence, yeast extract) now and then. The live yeast will grow and multiply and not need replacing. All you need do is do a "water change" on the reactor and add some fresh medium.


Thats an interesting and much more efficient way of doing it, where do you get the brewers yeast from?





While CO2 can take the pH down to about 3.6 in an unaerated and unbuffered tank, the moment you add aeration it will drive the CO2 off. CO2 gas' solubility in water is very low. Only if it ionizes to H+ and HCO3- has it got any "staying power". Simply turn the aeration up at night.


This is somewhat of a mission and you have to be very reliable about it otherwise you will cause Ph swings, an airstone on digital timer works well but then its getting costly again:wondering:




Having said all this, running Walstad (of Ecology of the Planted Aquarium fame) style tanks I have always had good plant growth and never had to supplement with CO2


This is a much more reliable way of doing things, (I have 10+ tanks running like this in Natal) it works wonderfully, the only problem is that I'v found you cant grow the more demanding plants or get them to show their full potential with the Walstad method. But I would say its less dengerous for beginners and better for the fish!

Either way it comes down to doing alot of research, it will pay off in the long run:bigsmile:


or you can just add a liquid source of carbon....
thats also a quick and easy method but again you need to be reliable about it and seachem is fairly expensive, Henk do you know if we get easycarbo in this country?

[TyroneGenade]

CO2 can be added in liquid form as sodium or potassium bicarbonate. Small amounts will not upset the pH very much. Both can force the pH up to about 8.3 but you have to add kilograms of the stuff to get there.

Another source of CO2 is sugar. You can prepare a solution of it (I forget the concentration) and pour a few mL into the tanke ach day. The bacteria in the water will break it down to CO2. Joergen Scheel used this method to grow lush plants in his killi tanks.

Generally, the plants that need high CO2 levels and don't respond well to the Walstad natural aquarium are those plants that are not really suited to aquariums. To grow them well you need to the make a fish-unfriendly environment. I prefer happy fish.

Brewers yeast can be bought at most super markets.

[brentnorm]

What about getting a CO2 bottle and running the CO2 through a diffuser ? Where would one get a CO2 bottle and regulator ?

[Philfarm]

What about getting a CO2 bottle and running the CO2 through a diffuser ? Where would one get a CO2 bottle and regulator ?


Thats the best option (in my opinion of course):bigsmile: especially if you can afford a solenoid, needle valve and ph controller with it!

They are hard to get believe me I just went through it... Speak to Altum Im sure he could organize a setup for you, but dont be shocked at the price:blink1:

[brentnorm]

What about getting a CO2 bottle and running the CO2 through a diffuser ? Where would one get a CO2 bottle and regulator ?


Thats the best option (in my opinion of course):bigsmile: especially if you can afford a solenoid, needle valve and ph controller with it!

They are hard to get believe me I just went through it... Speak to Altum Im sure he could organize a setup for you, but dont be shocked at the price:blink1:

Thanks Eskimo, will give him a shout

[Henk Hugo]

I think Rory was selling one of these systems.... check the for sale forum

[Philfarm]

I think Rory was selling one of these systems.... check the for sale forum


Too late Iv already taken it :eviltongue:

[Henk Hugo]

ah ok :D

[carl p]

has anyone tried afrox for CO2 fittings etc.... what there price.....

[Henk Hugo]

AFROX wants you to rent the bottles and stuff from them... they wont sell it to you

[carl p]

it depends if you buy aprox R30 000 of O2 a month....

the osram light tubes u'r refering to in this post is it a special aquarium tube or just a normal osram tube... can you use normal tubes for aquariums, wil it let your plants grow, ive got a special fauna phillips tube for my bonzai's its a blueish tube wil that work aswell...

[Henk Hugo]

normal 6500K daylight globes.

Just make sure you use food or medical grade CO2 then :D

[brentnorm]

it depends if you buy aprox R30 000 of O2 a month....

the osram light tubes u'r refering to in this post is it a special aquarium tube or just a normal osram tube... can you use normal tubes for aquariums, wil it let your plants grow, ive got a special fauna phillips tube for my bonzai's its a blueish tube wil that work aswell...

Would this tube be suitable for aquarium use?