View Full Version : Holes in plant leaves
snyper564
19-02-2010, 23:46
I have recently treated my tank with methylene blue everything is fine but the plants are dying now its been dying slowly for the past week is the small holes and then the eventually almost transparent leaf breaking off caused by the methylene blue or could it be caused by way to much movement in the water I have a submersable filter busy moving all the tops of the plants quite a lot. Thanks for the help I do have a red spectrum light and I'm new to the planted tank so I'm not sure what's going on. If it is the methylene blue how can I save the plant if I can't can I just perform water changes for a few weeks and then restock. Thanks a lot help is much appreciated
Can I ask why you treated with MB?
I recall the Prof saying in another thread that this stuff belongs in the museum.
hi Snyper564...
methylene blue is toxic to aquatic plants, I'm not sure how the plant would disintegrate though
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/methblueart.htm
rather goto www.apsa.co.za (http://www.apsa.co.za) and post there as those guys are the local SA plant specialists.
if they cant help you then goto the following:
www.aquaticplantcentral.com (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com)
www.plantgeek.net (http://www.plantgeek.net)
for 'holes in plant leave' look at these charts
http://www.fishtalk.co.za/general-discussion/some-improvements/?action=dlattach;attach=288;image (http://www.fishtalk.co.za/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=120.0;attach=289;i mage)
http://www.fishtalk.co.za/general-discussion/some-improvements/?action=dlattach;attach=290;image (http://www.fishtalk.co.za/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=120.0;attach=291;i mage)
snyper564
20-02-2010, 09:13
For the pleco he is very sensitive to other meds. And I didn't have another tank to put him in. But the plants started getting holes slowly over the past week it wasn't like instantly or over night. Is the water movement ok or should there be little water movement in the tank
Dirk Bellstedt
20-02-2010, 16:27
Snyper,
It has got nothing to do with water movement, methylene blue, as Dolphin indicates, is toxic to plants and they will slowly disintergrate if you use it.
I also want to repeat that methylene blue is not effective against most bacteria and fungi because of overusage and as a result most bugs are resistant to it. I repeat that it belongs in the museum and as you have experienced only has negative consequences.
I actually think that we need to start a sticky thread somewhere spelling out the negative consequences that the use of some medications can have.
Kind regards,
Dirk
Dirk, a thread like that would help used noobs out a lot. It will probably save us a lot of money as well. Thanks.
Dirk, a thread like that would help used noobs out a lot. It will probably save us a lot of money as well. Thanks.
Never mind the money it will save, just think about the amount of fishy lives it would save.
snyper564
15-03-2010, 21:39
Ok so its a few weeks later got rid of the old plants they were dying so i put a new one in 2 weeks ago and its growing well and then i bought 3 this weekend and they are all dying they are going see through and losing all their colour but the plant i got 2 weeks ago is growing nicely still whats going on with the plants?
Dirk Bellstedt
15-03-2010, 21:51
Snyper,
Are you giving these plants any fertilizer?
Kind regards,
Dirk
Henk Hugo
16-03-2010, 08:35
Dirk,
That is assuming these plants bought at Snypers LFS are actually true aquatics....
snyper564
16-03-2010, 08:53
I didnt know i needed to use any fertilizer the others are growing very well i guess thats why fertilizer never came to mind, could not using any fertilizer actually have such a dramatic effect. The thing is the plants leaves started going see through and breaking off almost within say 24-48 hours
maybe up a photo of the plants that we can see
Henk Hugo
16-03-2010, 08:59
sounds like you have been sold garden plants as aquatic plants - can we have some photos please?
Could it be that the plants in the tank originally were growing very well on the nutrient being produced, and now with the additional plants there isn't enough nutrients?
I would also be willing to bet that the plants are not tru aquatic plants, and in my experience, 50% of the plants I've ever bought from an LPS are bog water plants, and not aquatic. (Bog water means roots in the water, leaves above water)
snyper564
16-03-2010, 14:05
I have 4 bunches of elodea growing beautifully but have no idea whats wrong with these they were fully submerged at the shop and looked so beautiful and now theyre just dying here are the pics
here is a picture of the entire plant hope the quality is ok used my phone if not ill upload better ones later if needed thanks for all the help
Henk Hugo
16-03-2010, 14:14
1st of all you need to take the plant out of the pots - 2ndly they look like garden and bog plants to me....
I would also like to point out that Elodea is an invasvie weed and on all the black lists.... illegal to have, trade and transport
The plants need to be taken out of the pots. The glass fiber stuff they come packed in is dangerous for fish's gills. Plus I've seen soo many plants roots rot inside those pots.
Next, get rid of the illegal stuff... Henk won't be your friend unless you do... And I would highly recommend using ferts in the water. Also don't know how good your lighting is.
snyper564
16-03-2010, 15:30
Ill get those plants out their pots and I'm assuming the best way to get rid of the elodea safely is burn it? Ah ill be really annoyed if those plant are as u say bog plants and even worse to see that the shop is selling illegal plants which is really not cool I'm new to fish so its really a learning experience. I'm using a 10w buyo red light the tank is 72l is this fine. Any fert u would suggest using?
Prof Dirk has the perfect ferts... or try Bio Elite's Ferts.
10w is considered LOW light. Make sure your plant selection are low light plants. That reddish plant you have will not grow in that light.
Ferryman
16-03-2010, 22:49
The plants need to be taken out of the pots. The glass fiber stuff they come packed in is dangerous for fish's gills. Plus I've seen soo many plants roots rot inside those pots.
Next, get rid of the illegal stuff... Henk won't be your friend unless you do... And I would highly recommend using ferts in the water. Also don't know how good your lighting is.
just confirm before you go witch-hunting and burning plants...
i just got hold of the Encyclopedia of Aquarium plants, and found that the Lagarosiphon major, or african waterweed, with its characteristic curly leaves looks just like my elodea in my tank...
Now, when i first posted that my first two plants were vallis and elodea, it was directly afterwards stated that the elodea is blacklisted and therefor a no-no to talk about... aparently called the african water weed, synonymous with elodea crispa, the Lagarosiphon major is native to south africa, and not on the blacklist
http://keys.lucidcentral.org/keys/aquariumplants2/Aquarium_&_Pond_Plants_of_the_World/key/Aquarium_&_Pond_Plants/Media/Images/lagarosiphon_plate_lge-K.jpg
look at the plant to the left
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Plants/NZ/egeria.jpg
(to the right is Egeria densa)
so i guess this means the blacklist gun went off prematurely and i am actually allowed to mention my elodea as well
Henk Hugo
17-03-2010, 05:20
Nope - the lists says Elodea spp.....
Dirk Bellstedt
17-03-2010, 07:23
Hi Ferryman and Snyper,
What is actually much worse is that what many of you may think is Elodea is in actual fact Hydrilla verticilata which is weed which is much more worse than Elodea even. I know that Animal Kingdom in Pretoria has a 1.5 m tank with loads on this stuff in it which they sell as Elodea because they do not know the difference.
I know Lagarosiphon very well. I am not sure about this but I think it only occurs naturally in SA in northern KZN. I have seen it in Angola, and I have also seen it in botanical gardens in Europe. I have never seen it in any petshop in SA as a result of which I very strongly doubt that what we are talking about is Lagarosiphon I think it is rather Hydrilla, because Hydrilla also has slightly longer leaves which curl all the way back like your pic shows. I would also like to indicate to you that Lagarosiphon is very definitely not a synonym (this is a botanical term saying that it is the same species even if it is also known by a different name) of Elodea. Some may view it to be synonymous with Elodea, but is very definitely a different species.
However, with regard to this thread, this discussion is not helping snyper very much. What we should be saying is that even if it may look nice the Elodea or Hydrilla or whatever it is, actually is not a plant really suited for a planted tank! It is largely a floating plant and if you want a nice aquascape you should plant some plants that root properly. Something that has not been mentioned is that I see from your pics that the plants that you have bought have been grown emersed, in other words above water as many aquarium plants are. Very often these plants throw off their leaves once they are under the water and then they rot away as you describe.
I think that you need to do your homework about plants on this forum and also on other forums such as apsa and that you then need to get to a reliable supplier of decent plants if you want a nice planted tank. You can also approach the one sponsor on the forum, Dolphin, as he can supply plants in the Johannesburg Pretoria area. Bottom line is that growing a nice planted tank takes a lot more than just buying plants from a unreliable supplier and popping them into a tank. Unfortunately, you as a beginner are exposed to dealers whose main aim is to make a quick buck and as for what happens afterwards they could not give a damn as long as you come back and buy more plants!
Sterkte with this venture, we all know it is not so easy.
Kind regards,
Dirk
Prof. Dirk...
You have made a fantastic post there, and I can honestly say that you have hit the nail ON THE HEAD. I sadly was in the same boat as snyper... I was buying and buying plants from LPS stores... and was continuosly told blatant lies when I went back the following week. I was told my light was not good enough. My substrate is wrong. My fertilization is wrong.
So I have made a decision NOT to support LPS on buying plants... and as a result I started buying plants from FFW. I unfortunately have not had the chance to get plants from Dolphin, as when I planned on doing that, I was blessed with a huge packet of plants from Solex69, and thereby did not have enough space in my tank.
I am running what is considered low lighting, inadequate fertilizers, (altho I am adding), and no special substrate, and I have a fairly dense planted tank. I am trimming once a week now! Having the right plants had made a HUGE difference.
I'd like to follow up the Pofessor's post with a question. FFW grows their plants emersed... is there a way to adapt them so that when you put them in your tank they grow? I haven't had problems with the plants, (just the one plant suddenly changes it type of leaf it grows)... but it there a proper way to do it?
Dirk Bellstedt
17-03-2010, 16:33
Just before I answer can you clarify: Who is FFW, or am a being a little thick?
Kind regards,
Dirk
getting back to Snyper564's problem...
the pic quality is not good, so I'm guessing a little here... the reddish plant looks like some sort of Alternathera sp. probably Reinieki (okay spelling)... If it is, then that plant will not survive under 10w of light no matter what ferts you put in there... Its a Bright - very Bright light plant and is very demanding...it will die off within 24 hours - especially since it would already be dying in the LFS tank...
secondly, is this the same tank that you dosed the methylene blue in? If so, methylene blue is adsorbed by silicone and will be expelled back into the water even after you do a water change thereby making the water toxic to plants again...the elodea (or whatever it might be) could very well survive under these conditions as its quite a hardy plant (hence its invasive nature)...
did you ask your lfs for advice on these plants before purchasing them?
Just before I answer can you clarify: Who is FFW, or am a being a little thick?
Kind regards,
Dirk
Sorry Dirk.
FFW is the name of a LPS. (Fish Fantasy World)
Ferryman
17-03-2010, 20:29
ive also stopped buying plants from lfs when its been grown emersed and needs to almost melt away before it can adapt. i also think the red plant is alternanthera and probably melted away due to low light and needed adaptation. my next planted tank is going to be supplied by dolphin/he just doesnt know it yet... =)
Dolphin's prices are VERY good on tanks.
(I'm just waiting for him to get back to me on a koi pond price I asked him for...!)
Dolphin's prices are VERY good on tanks.
(I'm just waiting for him to get back to me on a koi pond price I asked him for...!)
I know I know...SARS can be royal pain in the @$$ (no this has nothing to do with the fish business...) I will get to it I PROMISE!
snyper564
17-03-2010, 21:39
Yip its the tanks that's been dosed with the methylene blue seems like the worst thing I could have ever done. But there is nothing I can do abt it now. That is almost a month ago and I have performed many water changes fish are doing well. Now the plants seem to be the only problem you say the silicon has absorbed the meth blue I see that is the case will the meth blue ever go away I know the colour will alway say blue now but is there any hope for plants in my tank. I feel like its never going to get anywhere at the moment, thanks for all the help and info its much appreciated. No I didn't ask any questions at the shop regarding the plants which now seems like the dumbest thing I could have done.
seeing as its 03h46, I try to make sense ;)
I dont know of anyway to get rid of the methylene blue from the silicone, oh wait...there's a sera product called toxivec which I think removes methylene blue. how much of it it can removed I dont know so you could try this and still have a problem and then again toxivec itself is harmful to sensitive plants, frankly if you want to keep plants then you need to A) get a new tank or B) re-silicone this tank, sorry!
no need to be hard on yourself, its called school fees - something none of us factor into the cost of getting started with keeping tropical fish...
No I didn't ask any questions at the shop regarding the plants which now seems like the dumbest thing I could have done.
You know what... don't put yourself down. Dolphin is correct in saying that we should ask the guys what type of light the plant needs, CO2 etc... but the truth of the matter is that NOT ONE SINGLE LPS STORE out there will know the answer. I will put my head on a block that every single sales person selling you plants will say- "The higher the light, the better, CO2 is definately beneficial, and fertz is a must." Basically he's covering himself, because he doesn't actually know, nd is more interested in the post sales sale.
seeing as its 03h46, I try to make sense ;)
Baby hour?
no need to be hard on yourself, its called school fees - something none of us factor into the cost of getting started with keeping tropical fish...
Yeah... sometimes school fees are damn expensive... and can be VERY disheartening. I've heard of too many people pack up the hobby because of "school fees" experiences.
Skyecloud
20-03-2010, 15:24
Holes can also be caused, esp in Cryptocorynes, by too much Co2! I guess with your water movement that this is not the cause tho'.
snyper564
20-03-2010, 19:20
i realised that the first batch i had died from holes but thats from the meth blue but the new batch those pics i posted the leaves appeared to melt after they went transparent i have removed all the pots and "melted" leaves and placed the plants back into the tank now and they seem to have small new leaves coming out
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