D i y stand shelf ?

[stormbringer101]

Evening guys .

I m wondering if its adviseable or possible to make a steel based stand mounted on the wall. as i have a Huge area above my one tank and I have a old project 1.5mX45x60 that I would love to put above .
I was thinking .10mm thick L brackets about 10 cm wide all the the way across 3 walls in shape of a U , 100 MM rawl bolts 3 per bracket and 20mm thick sheet of steel all across as a base.
I figure if one 8mm rawbolt can hold us climbers meters of the ground and take falls and not pull out .surley its puasable to make a shelf like this hold 500+ kgs ??? .
. pics attached

[Zoom]

The problem isn't whether the rawl bolts will hold the weight... in theory they will... the problem comes in that the brickwork structure is not designed to hold that kind of weight. If it were a solid concrete wall, then yes, I would say go for it... unfortunately bricks are not designed to take "sheer" weight, and over time they will crumble inside.

[f-fish]

If you made a shelf to fit above the current tank - bolt that into the wall and add some legs with braces to the shelf .. then that should be fine. I am assuming that the tilled slab has extra load capabilities to carry the additional tank + water. Doing that should allow you to reduce the "sheer" weight and the bolts will only be used to stabilize the setup.

[stormbringer101]

thanks .
I see the point, would 4 legs on the corners be ok and what thickness should they be as i have limited space on the sides ...

[Ferryman]

wouldn't something like this work?
(black is a steel squarepipe frame, triangle bracing)
(brown being the walls)
(grey being bolts)

surely that would have enough soppport for the base, and the downforce would be spread out?

[stormbringer101]

thats what i was thinking but go overkill on bolts and brackets so if one blows theres like 50 others holding it in place .... What if i take tubing up the wall to the slab above call it upsise down legs. .i ve made climbing walls like that that fill a whole double garrage roof and the wieght gets spread out evenly. something like this ..sorry my sketchup skills suc and dimensions are way of but its what i was thinking +_

[theosmit]

I'm no expert in building, but my common sense tells me that 500kg between the three walls is not a lot. You shouldn't go ape on the bolts. They won't break easily, it is the brick you need to worry about as Zoom said. 3 on the sides and 5 at the back is starting to get crowded. And remember that a rawl bolt can split a brick very easily if you arent careful.

In the pic the roof looks like concrete slabs. Not sure if it would be safe to help carrying weight from there...

[Zoom]

In THEORY, having a slab above gives the brickwork added stability. The "problem" comes in that genrally speaking the slab beneath (meaning the ceiling part of a slab) is not where the strength in the design lies. The strength actually lies in the slab above (meaning the floor part of the alsb). It is a general assuption that no structural connections (i.e more than 20kgs) can be attached to the underside of the slab... unless mentioned to the engineer during construction.

The design you guys have come up with will work in principal... do'nt go too crazy with the rawl bolts, as too many can become a problem too. Drill one hole every second brick or so. I would also caution you against rawl bolts... they are great DIY GIMMICKS... over time they almost ALWAYS pull out. I would rather advise you to look into the chemical anchoring system. Your steel manufacturers say that chemical anchoring is about the same price as a rawl bolt system. I've never compared, and never used the chemical anchor myself... but my sub-contractors all swear by them. Basically drill a 16mm hole... fill the holw with chemical agent (comes in a silicon gun type tube), and stick the (coach screw type) bolt in. As far as I have seen, when this dries, you have to get the angle grinder to get it out.

Having a further glance at the picture I have noticed other problematic areas. To the right you have a window, and to the left you have a braai. These are what we call "openings" in the building industry... and the moment you have an opening, you have a weakening in the building integrity around that opening. Have you ever noticed that 75% of household settlement cracks happen near a window or door, and generally the crack joins the window opening? Some builders also use to skimp in bricks when building the braai surround, and only build that wall (to the left of your tank) a single skin wall... which will not by structurally sound. You would need to check that out.

What you want to do is touch-and-go.... it could work, it could end up miserably. If I were you, I would possibly ask an engineer to pop around to have a look. (they usually not cheap tho... but in comparrison to loosing 2 fish tanks????)

Another silly thing to consider... you do realise that you are going to have to do your weekly maintenance via a step ladder!?

Although what you are planning on doing, if a nice show-piece aquarium is set up, will look pretty dam marvolous and make a good conversation piece around the braai!

Keep us updated on what you plan on doing

P.S... When I say Rawl Bolts are great DIY Gimmicks... I'm not saying they are completely useless. In general, the DIY market have a cheap and nasty drill, drill the 13mm hols... but because the drill is only half as good, the hole comes out at 14mm... and then you land up taking the rawl bolt back to the store calling it a piece of k%$# and wanting a refund on a rawlbolt that just pulled to pieces in your hole. (When I worked at mica, this was a costant).

In the Industry though, the right toold are available, and when drilling a 13mm hole... you GET A 13mm HOLE. When the right size hole is drilled, and the bolt it not over tightened, (Rather tightened with a torq wrench) then they are fabulous bolts

[butcherman]

how about just making 1 stand to house both tanks one above the other? seems alot safer and simpler

[stormbringer101]

thanks guys ..zoom you know your stuff man .... lucky the bricks are all double as the builder built my place for himself and then took the bigger unit across from me so my place and his seem to be the only units in the complex without problems ,,,go figure.on the glue side I had a bad exp with it a few years back while bolting a climbing route in watervalboven 150m up .once its mixed and dry its awsome but getting there is a mission. as for the hieght no problem i normally stand on the couch or the window sill or the slab itself .Ill redesign a angle iron stand now that just uses the wall as anchor points and post later ..thanks for all the input

[stormbringer101]

think im gonna go with something like this .... a angle iron or square tube stand bolted to the wall for anchorage.spoke to my builder he rekons the rhino slabs underneath will handle all the wieght easily ???.. will start this weekend and take it bit by bit ..thanks for all the advice..

[Donny]

This looks like the strongest and safest.. raw bolts in a wall can pull out .. 20mm to 25 mm square tube should be strong enough ..

[stormbringer101]

awsome thanks Donny.

[Donny]

I have had 3 x 1.2's stacked on top of one another on a stand made from 20 mm square tubing. In the centre of each tank i have a brace running from the back to the front and under each tank i put 15mm peace of wood then 10 mm of foam.... hope this make sense.

[stormbringer101]

I normally use 2 8mm masonite as base then the 20mm foam, think ill use a 50 mm tube for the 4 legs and 50mm angle iron up the wall and back to attach to the wall I m a strong believer in overkill.

[Donny]

this sounds way strong enough ...

[f-fish]

nice project - have fun - oh and post pics once done ..

[Ferryman]

btw, what prog did you do the mockups with?

[stormbringer101]

just finished doing measurments and drawing to scale .off to builders tm to see what the damage will be Im hopping they can cut all the squre tube to size for me and then all I have to do is drill and weld and assemble (in theory).......

[Gareth]

Hope you come right dude I think when it is all done it is going to be awesomes

[Reafer]

just finished doing measurments and drawing to scale .off to builders tm to see what the damage will be Im hopping they can cut all the squre tube to size for me and then all I have to do is drill and weld and assemble (in theory).......

Dont go to builder m8 they going to rip u off and then you are going to have to still find someone to cut it for you. Rather find a metal working shop , you must have loads up there, you can then get the metal and it cut from the same place which will work out cheaper. For 25mmx25mm square tubing you looking are about R140 a 6m lenth depending on the thickness of the tubing walls

[stormbringer101]

thanks .will look around for a steel works .builders is just close to my house.
I used google sketch up for the drawings.

[Zoom]

Stormbringer... Alert Steel On Hendrik Potgieter road will be able to supply very good priced steel, as well as cut it for you. Alternately contact a company called Five Star Steel in Laser Park (Opp Ferreiras.) Give Jan your diagrams and specs, and he will be able to MAKE it for you within about 5-7 working days. All you might need to do is spray it black... but he might be prepared to do that for you too. We use him for all our stell fabrication in building industry.

[stormbringer101]

ahh i was just gonna come on and moan about builders prices and ask for help ....
zoom you da man.

any way here is what i came up with.bear in mind im not a fabricator so please let me know if ive got the wrong idea going .

[f-fish]

Why the blue legs and bracing at the top? If you are planing on hanging light form it OK.

[stormbringer101]

the blue legs will be bolted to the wall as the tank will be sitting almost 1.5m up and i dont wont it falling or tipping on any one.

[Zoom]

Stormbringer101-

The I couldn't quite read the dimensions of your picture with regards to the frames... so I hope this suggestion makes a a bit of sense.

The top tank bracing I would add the green bracing and an extra yellow bracing as per your bottom tank stand... else there is no support in the middle of the tank.

Then I would add some diagonal bracing.. basically going from the FRONT of the tanks to the BACK WALL at +/- 45degrees going down...


W ------------
__________ *
A________*
_______*
L____*
___*
L*

(The stars are the bracing diagonal bracing.) Please excuse the _____ lines... TASA wouldn't accept the spacebar as suitable spacing

Put 2 in for each tank up against the walls on either side. Basically you have all the pressure of the weight working on SHEER against the bolts in the wall, and the floor will obviously take some of the load... the diagonal bracing will take some of the weight and distrobute it directly to to back wall and work on opposition to the SHEER pressure.

(Really hope that makes sense)

[stormbringer101]

i think i know what you mean... problem is the arowanas tank sits inbetween the red legs and it is 60 wide and 65 high there is only 10 cm spare on the sides and 1cm against wall. thats why i want to use 50mm tube as apposed to normal 20mm for added strenth against the weight. the 1.5m will sit on a steel plate on the yellow bars and will only go half way up the blue tubes. but there is a masonite box on the top1.5m tank going al the way to the roof with clear perspex infront for viewing my archers jump and spit.

[Zoom]

Oh... ok... sorry.... So your bottom tank is going to be on the floor basically, and the second tank on the first shelf! That makes better sense. Then your design might work.

Am I correct in saying that the blue posts is only going to be holding the masonite box and the clear perspex? If so you can reduce that in size... no need to go 50 x 50 on that, unless you looking at making it all uniform. If it's only holding the masonite box, then you could even go as thin as 20 x 20, or 25 x 25. You could also look at using 50 x 50 ANGLE iron there if you want to keep the sizes uniform?

I'm just throwing ideas your way with regards to saving a few penny's. (A penny saved is an extra fish!)

Is 750 height on the bottom tank high enough to allow you to fit lighting above the tank and maintenance? if the tank is 65 high, with a 10mm (?) polistyrene under... that will only allow you 90mm of space (or 9 cm) to put a light in and allow maintenance. Why not raise the top tank 75 - 100mm?

[Zafgak]

Storm - make sure that the steel is galvanised after welding - or at least a decent primer before painting - nothing worse than rust after a few months...

Also agree with Zoom - clearance on top is all important - I have built a number of multiple stands and learned this lesson the hard way...

[stormbringer101]

thanks .no there is enough space for light and still plenty space to get my hands in just dont want to much space as the light box also works as a cover cause as you know arowanas can jump. As for the top the box fits on the tank exactly i just want the stand to be solid and not fall thats why i put the legs going all the way up to bolt to the wall .can i leave them out

[Zoom]

Storm: Could you post a pic/diagram of how your tanks are going to fit together on this stand? Would make it easier to make better judgement on what is absolutely necessary, and what can be cut back on.

I agree with building something firm and sturdy, and going a little overboard a bit. Most engineers are a little conservative and add extra to compensate for the "what if" scenario. My only concern is I don't think it necessary to go completely over-the-top and land up with a monstrosity of a thing.. of worse still... not like the design and look in the end.

I think what we all forget sometimes is that a fishtank is also a showpiece, and an artwork. It needs to look appealing to the eye. I can't stand pictures of fishtanks where filters are all over the floor, piping is hanging everywhere, cables are all knotted... and then we must comment on how "nice the fish-tank looks." (Maybe this is my compulsive nature coming through)

[stormbringer101]

thanks zoom will put up pic tonight havent got that drawing on my laptop.but if you look on the 1st page the photo of the arowana tank just picture the stand sitting on the sides of it and the new tank about 10cm above the light box the new tank is only 1.5 X 45 so there will be plenty of space on the shelf and with the box ontop it will go up to about 5cm before the ceiling .the struts going up is cause the stand will only have four legs on the sides and i figure it will strenthen the whole thing.